Dune

[Ordnael]

"You realize there's a terrible continuity issue at the beginning of Children of Dune?"

I didn't notice that!

"Jessica immediately sees that Alia has been engaging in forbidden manipulation of her metabolism to not age."
That was forbidden!?

"Shall I move some posts into the Dune thread?"
Do it.

[Buster's Uncle]

Done.

Yeah; think about the Bene Gesseret; they get away with lots the whole series, but pointedly do not directly grasp at power for themselves.  The power behind the throne is not such a target as the butt in it.  The Order didn't like Alia to begin with, a Reverend Mother outside the order, not under their influence, and they couldn't afford to have anyone advertising their powers by running around 500 years old.

Alia was maybe 16 years, at most, from having the most competent hit squads in the universe after her...

[Ordnael]

If not for falling to the Baron's memory...I don't think the Bene Gesserit would ever send a hit squad against Alia, which they never did.
I remember she kills herself under the protection and love of both Jessica and Paul (besides the rest of her family), as they wouldn't move against her.

And the Baron's possession never made much sense to me, I don't recall a Reverend Mother, even in Brian's expanded universe to commune with male Other Memory...they were always the souls of fallen Reverend Mothers.
The notable exception is the finished Kwisatz Haderach in Leto II that can summon Paul, but this made sense for me since he's a kind of supreme being travelling all planes of reality with is omniprescience!

[Buster's Uncle]

...

"The pre-born observably tend to become adults of nasty habits."  -That's close to a quote from somewhere in the real Dune corpus, and it's something of an understatement.

No, the Order would exhaust all possibilities -endless possibilities- for dealing with Alia before they sent a group of their own members as a straight-up hit squad, but if it came to that extremity, Alia was dead.  Period.

[Buster's Uncle]

She was an "abomination" you see, because being born with all those memories of all those lives, how could she ever Be Herself?  It's Pieces of Eight on Voyager again, only decades before and from birth, and born with superpowers at that.

The tragedy was, and Alia WAS a tragedy, that she was doing really well at 15, still honing her powers, but well into developing a good individual self with decent desires and aspirations - when the Baron persona showed up.

[Ordnael]

"No, the Order would exhaust all possibilities -endless possibilities- for dealing with Alia before they sent a group of their own members as a straight-up hit squad, but if it came to that extremity, Alia was dead.  Period."

This is within the realm of the reader's imagination but I disagree
The order against The Fremen plus Jessica, proto Kwisatz Haderach Paul, an about to be finished Kwisatz Haderach Leto II and a Mentat Ghola of Duncan freaking Idaho who is Ginaz swordmaster btw...
maybe if the Bene Gesserit have Miles Teg on their side for that assault maybe they would stand a chance

[Buster's Uncle]

Well, she had powers they didn't -see the knife/poison/whatever coming- and she had the formidable Baron, who MIGHT choose to try to help her survive so he can continue to have sex and eat, or he likely would have made her walk right into traps.

(That's more or less what actually happened, not that she could see Leto coming, but the Baron knew SOMEthing deadly enough was going to show up eventually while he had a good time undermining Alia while he waited.)

It's anyone's game, really, and don't underestimate Alia, the Baron personna, or the Bene Gesserit.  Leto and what was left of Paul were hardly on her side.

[Ordnael]

"Leto and what was left of Paul were hardly on her side."

Well I did read Children of Dune 7 or 8 years ago. Paul was indeed confronting her on religious matters...I don't remember how strongly Leto felt about the whole situation.

I must, eventually, give all the original books another read.
...
And I never gave TLotR a chance yet, started with The Hobbit (also though as nails to read and comprehend, not as dense as Dune but the english is more archaic) but haven't moved on to the main dishes yet...Dune beckons and I bought the full Butlerian trilogy in one go:)
...

On the matter of Alia Lynch was good to her, Dennis, except for the prescient image Paul got of her, not so much...I also expected post credits scene (à la MCU) of someone or something retrieving the remains of Idaho...not that books gives us that, we go into Messiah and bam! here's Duncan!...but I expected Dennis to give us that!

[Buster's Uncle]

Oh, she did have Hayt on her side - a hypothetical hit squad would have had to kill the Idaho ghola.


As I said of the miniseries quite a few years ago, Pre-born abominations are full of charm and win.

Loved the Alia actress, loved James MacAvoy in the first thing I ever saw him in, loved the Ghanima actress and the excellent chemistry between the twins onscreen.

[Ordnael]

I watched the series fairly recently in the 4 years in between TOS and TNG and Space 1999 but I remember so little besides the fact I liked it. I can still remember the ball scene the Atreides gave on their new Arrakis homestead and the somewhat silly malicious Baron produced by the show. I was thinking of rewatching DS9  after finishing Disco Trek but my wife became a fan of Dune thanks to the Dennis movie...I should take the chance and further that new trait of her.
Has anyone watched the new Sister's show?

[Buster's Uncle]

I have not, not really aware it was a thing - I think I saw one post on Facebook maybe a year ago?  Doesn't seem to have drawn attention, so probably not good?  -Or terrible?


That was still terrible Baron in the miniseries, just not as terrible as the 86 movie.  Think of Vincent D'Onofrio's TV Kingpin -or better, the actual late 70s Frank Miller Daredevil comics- and THERE'S the Baron done right.  I do not know of the latest movies, though Buster's Daddy says they're great.

(I've worked with Vincent D'Onofrio's dad, Gene, who's a friend...)

[Ordnael]

"(I've worked with Vincent D'Onofrio's dad, Gene, who's a friend...)"
Must have been good stuff!

Vincent D'Onofrio's Kingpin was a thing of majesty...soo good they had to bring him back for Daredevil's season 3, if I remember correctly.
All his interactions with both the hero, his girlfriend his bff...that was some good acting and some great writing.

And my first memory of Vincent is from Men In Black, picked that movie from the last VHS renter I've ever known many times.
The fact that the small quiosque that housed this business was a short way from home is just a coincidence.

This new Baron is kindda too much different from all previous incarnations that were ever on screen...well him and all of the Harkonen actually...even Giedi Prime looks off. But after digesting Denis Villeneuve's magnum opus I get what he was aiming at. An aesthetic cohesion that I am unsure the books ever properly hinted.

I remember, wrongly perhaps, that both Lynch's work and the miniseries seem to have a somewhat similar look but I don't know if that was pulled from the book or if both director's Jonh Harrison and Greg Yaitanes were just following the footsteps of the 1984 (went to Dune wiki for this and it mentions 1984 release not 1986) visually exotic adaptation.

You will, probably, like me make everyone around you uncomfortable while watching Denis Villeneuve's Dune because you won't shut up about perceived inaccuracies

But I think you will find the 2021 movie well worth of your time. I can feel Villeneuve's likes the source material but he knew he had to make something feel fresh to draw audiences in and he successfully gave it an epic aura that I think we both believe Dune deserves. He did really well by Dune fans taking the risk of dividing the adaptation into two parts.
And let me tell you the kid really plays a convincing Paul...Chani was hard for me at first, but then I remember the Fremen were not that welcoming to Paul and Jessica at first, Stilgar is also good...and the off putting Baron is played by a very sinister Stellan Skarsgård.
My biggest gripe is with Liet Kynes, they DEId him into a black woman and it's not like she doesn't play the part well, but going from Max Von Sidow to her seem like a huge downgrade and worst of it is that it completely fudges his background story in the prequels...which the new series are already exploring, though not the House of books but the Navigators, Mentats trilogy...from what I've read.

Again, it's aesthetic is vastly different from Lynch, a bit toned down on the exotic but still very off putting (as people from a many millenniums farther into the future in a imperium should be off putting to us living in this reality) and pleasing. Oh and the technology looks awesome, the most striking are the Ornithopters!

This is being said I still regard Lynch's adaptation really good, I am used to tell people it mimicks somewhat accuratly about 75% of the book...Those last 20 minutes or so drop the ball. But man that Navigator entrance into the Golden throne hall, Sting's Feyd-Rautha, Mohiam performing the box test, they still strike has awesome scenes without parallell!

[Buster's Uncle]

I wouldn't wish having to follow Max von Sydow in a part on anyone...

[Buster's Uncle]

My sister has always said the 86 movie did the first third of the book well enough, but dropped the heck outta the ball on the rest - I agree.

All the Lynch inventions showed no understanding of the source.  Always watch the edited for TV version, "Directed by Alan Smitee", never the theatrical release - Smithee has a fraction of the reptations of the 'SLEEPER MUST AWAKEN' sequence, and other missteps and Lynch weidrness-to-be-wierd.