Dune

[Elok]

IIRC the plot of SMAC was consciously modeled after a different Frank Herbert book, called The Lazarus Effect or some such; Brian Reynolds said as much on a podcast c. 2011.  Though the vicious factionalism of Dune itself was supposedly an inspiration.

[bvanevery]

Factionalism I don't have problem with... it's not as if they went all "Renaissance Great Houses" in making the SMAC fiction.  The game that actually is a 100% Dune ripoff, is Emperor of the Fading Suns.  I've played that a fair amount over the years but have never actually finished a game.

[Vishniac]

IIRC the plot of SMAC was consciously modeled after a different Frank Herbert book, called The Lazarus Effect or some such; Brian Reynolds said as much on a podcast c. 2011.  Though the vicious factionalism of Dune itself was supposedly an inspiration.

The Jesus Incident
It has mind-worms and other aggressive native life, drones and punishment spheres.
I read it after finding its title at the end of the SMAC manual (in a time when games still had manuals)

[Buster's Uncle]

That (The Lazarus Effect effect was next in the same series and also relevant, if water-logged, then The Jesus Incident) and there was still a little Dune, and specific inspiration for Yang came from a Saberhagen(? IIRC) story I've stumbled over - and doubtless other influences...

[Syn]

RE: thread title.

Yes.

[Buster's Uncle]

Troll.

Victory, a story By Fred Saberhagen -the Berserkers and Book of Swords author- about an emissary (with a familiar name) from an interstellar government visiting a world that's had a one-sided nuclear war going for 40 years - and meets a leader with a very familiar outlook and modus operendi. This is a scan of two pages from the story, anthologized in Saberhagen: My Best.

---

I found this six years ago, but my post about it is on an old dead forum where few of you will have seen it - so I figured I'd re-post here.  -But read the two pages I attach below, and tell me this didn't have everything to do with the creation of the Hive.  The story's worth turning up and reading for any dedicated SMACer.

This pic embiggens...

[Buster's Uncle]

Dune - Thug Notes Summary and Analysis

[Buster's Uncle]

Started Dune The Butlerian Jihad some time ago...I am enjoying it...but I am slow reader...videogames and Star Trek take all disposable time

I did not make it past the first three books of the new Dune stuff - they weren't wretched on their own merits, but I do wonder what series Brian and Kevin think they were writing sequels/prequels to.  It definitely wasn't the real Dune books I read, and not being nearly as good, that's impossible to overlook.

[Ordnael]

Brian did have access to all of his father loose texts about forgotten/less developed lore. I believe his and Kevin's work are legit and in no way hurts the original.
You can think of these new books as an expanded universe authorised fan fiction...that is easier to read then Frank's magnum opus.
I read all 6 originals and let me tell you, maybe I did a poor choice of wanting to read the english original maybe I didn't but there are pages when Paul or Leto are delving into their prescience or Franks puts some religious essay stuff that are hard to get, had to reread those paragraphs a couple of times
But, btw, which books did you read? The butlerian jihad books, the house of books?
There are many more indeed...The Navigators of Dune or the Mentats of Dune have enticing titles that I might be interested in whilst titles like The Winds of Dune or the whoe Caladan trilogy don't call to me so much, specially after reading the House of series...feels like a prequel inside of a prequel. But the whole butlerian jihad concept that Franks leaves without serious development in his originals always captivated me.

[Buster's Uncle]

I do NOT tend to believe in those notes existing, not to question anyone's honesty - but the assumptions they proceed from are NOT the assumptions explicit on the page in Chapterhouse Dune.  Those were ascended Face Dancers, not AI's impersonating, and Mirabella had WON for the Bene Gessert.

I read the House prequel books that came out first.  They used some interesting ideas, and weren't terribly written, but it just wasn't compatible with actual canon.  Never-happened bad fanfic someone got paid for.


The real Dune books aren't an easy read for a fluent native speaker, actually.  Very densely-written stuff, even when it didn't look it.

[Ordnael]

"Those were ascended Face Dancers, not AI's impersonating, and Mirabella had WON for the Bene Gessert."
Please give me some more context

"They used some interesting ideas, and weren't terribly written, but it just wasn't compatible with actual canon."
Why do you think the House prequel books aren't compatible? And they need be only compatible with one book...Dune! Which is dense but it's not Heretics or Chapterhouse dense.

and btw
"The real Dune books aren't an easy read for a fluent native speaker, actually."
Thank you for that remark, really...if sometimes I come across wrongly it might be my english...so sorry in advance for that.

[Buster's Uncle]

Actual site policy is that we have to be cool to y'all dirty foreigners and your terrible English.  -And yours isn't that bad anyway.


Well, for example, that just wasn't the real Baron -cute idea that he used to be muscular and pretty, but that's not the problem- he was the most dangerous man alive, planning on a long generational scale to make freakin' spoiled FEYD emperor, but their Harkonnen was too inept, too often.  (Their Rabban, also, was just plain stupid and obvious, which isn't quite right.)

Remember that this IS supposed to be the young Baron who was in Alia's head in Children of Dune -those memories are from when he sired Jessica- and the real Baron in her head was already fully-formed as we knew him later in life, motivated to destroy Alia, his killer.  Not. compatible.

[Ordnael]

This is good stuff. You make some really good points about your compatibility issues:

"Well, for example, that just wasn't the real Baron -cute idea that he used to be muscular and pretty,"

Okay...but I really think the whole story on the baron was really good and made him much more vicious in my eyes than what we had from "just" Dune...the sci-fi channel Dune miniseries image of Vladimir has stuck with me so I enjoyed the rawness of the character in these prequels...I can't argue against your point, I just think the whole Mohiam "poisons" plot him and his degeneracy is too good to forgo and I'd love for Dennis to pick on the prequels

"he was the most dangerous man alive"

He's got nothing on what the Tleilaxus did...again bonus points for the books for fleshing out just how horrendous these guys are. Dune Messiah only give us a small glimpse...sure God Emperor gives some more but these books...man the fall of Ix is good stuff

"but heir Harkonnen was too inept, too often.  (Their Rabban, also, was just plain stupid and obvious"

Yeah...I'll give you that...though his exchanges with is father and how these culminate in Feyd's abduction are also very good!

"Remember that this IS supposed to be the young Baron who was in Alia's head in Children of Dune -those memories are from when he sired Jessica- and the real Baron in her head was already fully-formed as we knew him later in life, motivated to destroy Alia, his killer.  Not. compatible."

Well yes...you are right again...but we can speculate and believe the prequel if we want. I want:)
Always bothered me the way Alia was handed..."pray for Alia" is a thought I came to in respect for the character at the time I read Children.

[Buster's Uncle]

You realize there's a terrible continuity issue at the beginning of Children of Dune?  Alia was 15 in Dune Messiah.  Jessica immediately sees that Alia has been engaging in forbidden manipulation of her metabolism to not age.  The twins, born at the end of the previous book, are nine.

So Alia is 24.


Shall I move some posts into the Dune thread?

[Buster's Uncle]

bump