How American Christians can stop being bullies and start winning converts

[DrazharLn]

I think the motivation also varied quite a bit; I can pretty much guarantee, for instance, that when Martin Luther criticized the idea of selling indulgences, "obtaining tithes and fees" was not his motivation.

I agree. I believe early religions were largely about political power, not money, with a side order of genuine religious belief.

I believe the less politically powerful religious institutions of the modern West are still interested in gaining and exerting political power, but not as obviously or brazenly as before; due to the popularity of secularism.

Stuff about readings

I concede that some readings may be more authoritative than others, and even that some interpretations may be the only reasonable ones of a given source text.

My general argument was that religious belief should not affect government policy (secularism) and that where religious belief incites bigotry it should be censured.

My assertion that religious readings should not be discussed seriously in secular society comes from my belief that religion is ridiculous* and that we should not make important decisions on the basis of nonsense.

* That is, I think that belief in an intervening God or any entirely nonsensical (as in not capable of being sensed) phenomena is intellectually dishonest and worthy of ridicule. I understand that some people find this point of view offensive. Simon Amstell makes an amusing quip that matches my belief.

That gets into all sorts of problems...after all, preventing people from acting on their religious beliefs can itself easily turn into an infringement of rights.  It's a careful balancing act, and calls for careful distinctions.  (Saying "kill all the Jews" based on your religious beliefs is unacceptable, but saying "the Jews must repent of their error before God takes them to account", while not exactly pleasant, is more problematic to ban than to allow.  And what about hate speech against a historical group that no longer exists...I don't think that is harmful enough to justify interfering with religion.  Or what about hate speech against neo-Nazis?  Things get complicated.)

I agree that hate speech is difficult to define, but I believe that it is right for the state to attempt to legislate in this area: free speech should not always [Sleezebag] one's right to live without harassment and intimidation.

And of course the whole question of "rights" is also complicated...if God exists and created people in order that they behave in a certain manner, they have an obligation to behave in that manner and hence do not have a right to go against that.

I'd say that even if God did exist and created people in order that they behave in some manner that we *don't* then have an obligation to do as God wills. If God appeared in my living room right now and declared that I stop wearing clothes of mixed wool and cotton, I would ask why and only accede if persuaded or forced. Why not?

Of course, government can't really act on that when it's not proven...but that's more a pragmatic consideration than one of them actually having that right.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

[Yitzi]

I think the motivation also varied quite a bit; I can pretty much guarantee, for instance, that when Martin Luther criticized the idea of selling indulgences, "obtaining tithes and fees" was not his motivation.

I agree. I believe early religions were largely about political power, not money, with a side order of genuine religious belief.

Whereas I suspect that genuine religious belief played a far larger role than that.

I believe the less politically powerful religious institutions of the modern West are still interested in gaining and exerting political power, but not as obviously or brazenly as before; due to the popularity of secularism.

And I think that political power is a means, rather than an end, in most cases.

My general argument was that religious belief should not affect government policy (secularism) and that where religious belief incites bigotry it should be censured.

Regarding secularism, we're addressing that later in the posts.

As for censuring religion, such censure in general is dangerously close to  ;while it may be needed in some cases, it's important to be very careful.  (However, I don't think there are any religions whose dogma incites true bigotry, and there's nothing wrong with censuring people who misquote their religion to incite bigotry.)

My assertion that religious readings should not be discussed seriously in secular society comes from my belief that religion is ridiculous* and that we should not make important decisions on the basis of nonsense.

* That is, I think that belief in an intervening God or any entirely nonsensical (as in not capable of being sensed) phenomena is intellectually dishonest and worthy of ridicule.

Any particular reason why you think that about an intervening God?  "Mistaken" I can see you thinking, but that wouldn't be enough to justify ridicule, and I don't see why you'd think that it's intellectually dishonest to believe in an intervening God.

I agree that hate speech is difficult to define, but I believe that it is right for the state to attempt to legislate in this area: free speech should not always [Sleezebag] one's right to live without harassment and intimidation.

Of course it shouldn't...but things get more complicated in cases like I mentioned.

I'd say that even if God did exist and created people in order that they behave in some manner that we *don't* then have an obligation to do as God wills.

If someone gives you a gift on the condition that you use it only in a certain manner, are you not required to follow that condition?

I don't understand what you're saying here.

I believe that a true religion does have a right to being enforced...however, practically the American government, for instance, has no way of knowing which religion is true (or even if any religion is true), and therefore should just stay out of the matter.

[JarlWolf]

Part of the reason I distrust, even to the point of despise religion now is that not only did I grow up with Soviet education and rejection of such beliefs, the resurgance of Orthodox church and the fact they often support the far right wing gives me even less reason to like them.

And as for the stance my country has on homosexuality, it was much better under the Soviet Union, tolerance of it. It wasn't perfect but it wasn't as bigoted as it is now. And quite frankly I have had many homosexual friends and I myself, while not homosexual can understand such relations and even almost considered it myself after my wife passed years ago... perhaps not in the sexual sense of a relationship but more of comradery. Hard to properly explain it.. I will state right now that many of my friends who are/were have either moved or shut themselves away from public because of the bigotry here. It's much more common then you'd think, but its also persecuted badly by the far right and religious. Which unfortunately has grasp and control on this country...


I know one of my old colleague's sons (my colleague wasn't homosexual, but is son was) was bisexual and when it was exposed his relationship with another male happen, he actually committed suicide from the bullying/shame, and he was training to be a policeman...

There is some things that break my heart in this world, and the collapse of the Union and its more tolerable system socially was one of them. It wasn't perfect or entirely accepted back then either but it wasn't as bad as it is now...

[Yitzi]

Part of the reason I distrust, even to the point of despise religion now is that not only did I grow up with Soviet education and rejection of such beliefs

Understandable, though for me that's a reason to distrust and despise the Soviets...

the resurgance of Orthodox church and the fact they often support the far right wing gives me even less reason to like them.

You really shouldn't judge all organized religion by one group.

[Impaler]

Part of the reason I distrust, even to the point of despise religion now is that not only did I grow up with Soviet education and rejection of such beliefs

Understandable, though for me that's a reason to distrust and despise the Soviets...

Well that's kind of the pot calling the kettle black, if the only justification for vilifying the other side is that they vilify you in return then we haven't established any morale superiority or inferiority.  We could have any two competing religions both throw comparable accusations at each other.

The Soviets did at least walk the walk on tolerance, they practiced radical levels of gender and racial equality considering the centuries of cultural baggage they had to deal with, part of this was that class was their all consuming obsession and they considered every other distinction as irreverent.

the resurgance of Orthodox church and the fact they often support the far right wing gives me even less reason to like them.

You really shouldn't judge all organized religion by one group.

He isn't, or at least a wider sample size wouldn't change the conclusion, organized religion in western civilization consistently supports the political right (and I'm fairly certain this will hold for the East as well).  It's just a fundamental incompatibility for 'religion' aka a system of codified ethics and norms to be 'liberal' because liberalism is by definition the open ended questioning and critiquing of societies codes and norms.

[Impaler]

People confusing their native culture with the actual tenants of their religion is disgustingly common, approaching universal.  No one, for example, has ever explained to me how a believing Christian can reconcile military service with Matthew 18:22...

Spot on BU, but I think it is in fact doubly deplorable in the instances of Christianity and Islam, in both cases the prophets set out to specifically repudiate elements of the native culture.  So while the respective religions are seemingly successful in a wholesale 'conversion' to the new value they are mostly just mass hypocrisy as thouse same cultural elements are championed by people who claim to be converts and followers.

[Yitzi]

Part of the reason I distrust, even to the point of despise religion now is that not only did I grow up with Soviet education and rejection of such beliefs

Understandable, though for me that's a reason to distrust and despise the Soviets...

Well that's kind of the pot calling the kettle black, if the only justification for vilifying the other side is that they vilify you in return then we haven't established any morale superiority or inferiority.  We could have any two competing religions both throw comparable accusations at each other.

Well, the Soviets did quite a bit more than just vilify; furthermore, even if it were equal, that wouldn't be "pot calling the kettle black", which specifically indicates that the criticizer is worse.  But yes, it does look a lot like "two competing religions".

The Soviets did at least walk the walk on tolerance, they practiced radical levels of gender and racial equality considering the centuries of cultural baggage they had to deal with, part of this was that class was their all consuming obsession and they considered every other distinction as irreverent.

But not religious tolerance.

He isn't, or at least a wider sample size wouldn't change the conclusion, organized religion in western civilization consistently supports the political right (and I'm fairly certain this will hold for the East as well).  It's just a fundamental incompatibility for 'religion' aka a system of codified ethics and norms to be 'liberal' because liberalism is by definition the open ended questioning and critiquing of societies codes and norms.

There's a difference, though, between the political right in general (social conservatism) and the far right (bigotry, persecution, and intolerance of the different just because it's different).

   is never perfectly aligned with  , but can be a lot closer to him than to  , and can have any sort of relationship with  .  (And economically speaking, it has a natural preference for  over  , American politics nonwithstanding.)

[JarlWolf]

Fact for you Yitzi- yes there was religious intolerance by the Soviets. But two things to remember-

During the Patriotic war, churches and other religious buildings were actually re-opened for use. (which remained afterwards in effect) It's just the state NEVER (and should in my opinion) support or connect a religious body.

And secondly, the Orthodox church used to torture people who disagreed with them during the days of the Tsar, and there is historical and archeological evidence to prove it. Pogroms headed by the White Russians (many of which who were supported by or even were Orthodox priesthood) used to beat to death and torture Jews as well as Communists and Bolshevik supporters just so you are aware.

Let me state it like this. I despise organized religions for the fact they use an often benevolent sounding idea or faith in order to capitulate their power and control over people, often through bloody means. The Orthodox church killed millions during many Tsar's reigns, Ivan the terrible being notable for this. The Spanish inquisition for Catholics... I don't need to list the amount of genocide and pain organized religions have caused of various faiths, nor do I need to speak on all the things done in the name of Communism or other ideals. Communism at least never stated once it had intentions of being peaceful, its a revolutionary ideal aimed to achieve political control for it's own purposes of realizing class equity.

Th actions taken for any ideal that end in suffering, they are all horrible, but the fact is I was educated to distrust said religions because they WERE not to be trusted. They were enemies of the state because they DID hunt the revolutionaries down, they DID actively try to stay in power and not support the cause the nation was founded on, and they were NOTORIOUS for monstrous acts. And at the time I was educated it wasn't too far a distant memory... I grew up during the Patriotic war under a regime of a man who participated in the revolution and civil war himself.

And the education system did change over time, my daughters certainly learned more then I did... and different stuff.

It wasn't lies what they taught us, and I later checked back to clarify this for myself, later in life. Slanted and aimed to make us distrust it, yes.

And don't tell me they didn't do the same in America with Communists or other ideals, even to this day.

Not mad but don't act innocent of such guilt either. I don't need to tell you that Communists in America suffered the same, if not worse discrimination, persecution and even downright murder during the McCarthy era. And the funny thing is Communists didn't actively invade, revolt or cause turmoil in specifically the United States. Sure you could state of other instances of that in other places, but then again America was a nation founded upon bloody revolt, as is many great nations.

[Yitzi]

Fact for you Yitzi- yes there was religious intolerance by the Soviets. But two things to remember-

During the Patriotic war, churches and other religious buildings were actually re-opened for use. (which remained afterwards in effect) It's just the state NEVER (and should in my opinion) support or connect a religious body.

And secondly, the Orthodox church used to torture people who disagreed with them during the days of the Tsar, and there is historical and archeological evidence to prove it. Pogroms headed by the White Russians (many of which who were supported by or even were Orthodox priesthood) used to beat to death and torture Jews as well as Communists and Bolshevik supporters just so you are aware.

Yeah, the Christians weren't too great either...but at least they weren't as effective at harming Jewish religion as the Communists were.

Let me state it like this. I despise organized religions for the fact they use an often benevolent sounding idea or faith in order to capitulate their power and control over people, often through bloody means. The Orthodox church killed millions during many Tsar's reigns, Ivan the terrible being notable for this. The Spanish inquisition for Catholics... I don't need to list the amount of genocide and pain organized religions have caused of various faiths, nor do I need to speak on all the things done in the name of Communism or other ideals. Communism at least never stated once it had intentions of being peaceful, its a revolutionary ideal aimed to achieve political control for it's own purposes of realizing class equity.

Isn't class equity also a benevolent sounding idea?  And didn't the Bolsheviks (Stalin in particular) also use that to gain power and control over people via bloody means?

Th actions taken for any ideal that end in suffering, they are all horrible, but the fact is I was educated to distrust said religions because they WERE not to be trusted. They were enemies of the state because they DID hunt the revolutionaries down, they DID actively try to stay in power and not support the cause the nation was founded on, and they were NOTORIOUS for monstrous acts. And at the time I was educated it wasn't too far a distant memory... I grew up during the Patriotic war under a regime of a man who participated in the revolution and civil war himself.

And the education system did change over time, my daughters certainly learned more then I did... and different stuff.

It wasn't lies what they taught us, and I later checked back to clarify this for myself, later in life. Slanted and aimed to make us distrust it, yes.

And don't tell me they didn't do the same in America with Communists or other ideals, even to this day.

Yes, I will grant that.  But isn't that only a reason to despise the organized religions that actually did that, not all of them?

[JarlWolf]

There is many reasons Yitzi, then those example provided why I distrust them.

Class equity is benevolent, the ending/result of it is- but the means to do it aren't. And this isn't hidden even in Marx's original manifesto, its going to require a power shift from the bourgeoisie to the proletariat. Islam was spread nigh purely through conquest from 7th-8th century, its founder being a conqueror. Hebrews/Jews also were stemmed in conquest throughout their history, Moses and others conquering the area of modern Israel and outright killing off entire populations, such as Jericho, and later having conflicts over differences/heresies between their faith (such as when idols were built in the north, the same kingdom which later betrayed their hebrew kin and sided with Assyrians.)

There is countless examples of barbarism against people through organized religion- and keep in mind I am not stating religious faith itself did this. I am talking of the political organizations behind these faiths that control the believers, not the actual faith itself. I don't deny Stalin was a megalomaniac who went off the track of true communist ideal, and I am not stating that the Popes of Catholicism or Imam's of some Islamic sects who pursue violent jihads and crusades are the embodiment of their respective faiths.

But I have throughout my years garnered enough reason to not trust religious organizations and the fact they profit and get empowered from people believing in a spiritual faith like a business disgusts me. This is someone's spirituality we are talking about, something important to them and their being- and I have similar feelings over certain bodies within the former Soviet Union as well, who took communist ideal and skewered it for their own greed and evils.

With Jews in the Soviet Union, they actually lived better then they did under the days of the Tsars.. the persecution of them stopped. And as a fact during the patriotic war many Jewish partisans fought alongside Red Army forces in liberating eastern europe, and my country was first to liberate the eastern camps from the fascist menace.

And note, I include political organizations that treat their ideals like a faith and use it as a cloak to power and profit for their own greedy ends to be on the same boat as an organized religion. Politics is ugly but when you are scamming people of their beliefs, that's despicable.

I am old and too pooped to dig up too many examples, but I can state most organized religions have had a war in its name. Even Hindu's have fought for the sake of honour between princes, and Buddhists have fought because of those who were impure and needed cleansing- Japan is evident of this with their modified caste system, where people would be killed because they dealt with corpses, carrying/touching them. Whole bottom caste where these people could be killed without consequence.. of course, to be fair that was a social stigma more then purely religious.

Edit: Do understand I have a literal distrust as well due to my time in service... its hard for me to accept religious bodies after having dealing with them in militant forms... it haunts a man seeing what they did to people and what they made people do...

[Yitzi]

There is many reasons Yitzi, then those example provided why I distrust them.

Class equity is benevolent, the ending/result of it is- but the means to do it aren't. And this isn't hidden even in Marx's original manifesto, its going to require a power shift from the bourgeoisie to the proletariat. Islam was spread nigh purely through conquest from 7th-8th century, its founder being a conqueror. Hebrews/Jews also were stemmed in conquest throughout their history, Moses and others conquering the area of modern Israel and outright killing off entire populations, such as Jericho, and later having conflicts over differences/heresies between their faith (such as when idols were built in the north, the same kingdom which later betrayed their hebrew kin and sided with Assyrians.)

There is countless examples of barbarism against people through organized religion- and keep in mind I am not stating religious faith itself did this. I am talking of the political organizations behind these faiths that control the believers, not the actual faith itself. I don't deny Stalin was a megalomaniac who went off the track of true communist ideal, and I am not stating that the Popes of Catholicism or Imam's of some Islamic sects who pursue violent jihads and crusades are the embodiment of their respective faiths.

But I have throughout my years garnered enough reason to not trust religious organizations and the fact they profit and get empowered from people believing in a spiritual faith like a business disgusts me. This is someone's spirituality we are talking about, something important to them and their being- and I have similar feelings over certain bodies within the former Soviet Union as well, who took communist ideal and skewered it for their own greed and evils.

So perhaps, rather than making blanket statements like "all communists are like Stalin" or "all religious organizations are trying to make money at believers' expense", each case should be evaluated on its own merits?

With Jews in the Soviet Union, they actually lived better then they did under the days of the Tsars.. the persecution of them stopped.

Unless they did stuff like learning Hebrew...

There's no question that it was easier for a Jew to avoid trouble under the Soviet Union than under the Tsars...but it was harder to avoid trouble and still maintain Judaism.

And note, I include political organizations that treat their ideals like a faith and use it as a cloak to power and profit for their own greedy ends to be on the same boat as an organized religion.

And I'm asking you to include religious organizations that don't act in that manner to be "on the same boat as" political organizations that don't act in that manner.

[JarlWolf]

I've met very few religious organizations that don't operate like a corporate business, if any. Otherwise they wouldn't be an organization.

And Jews faced that sort of discrimination in many nations- including the United States. When it comes to Judaism its a religion that has a history of persecution behind it, and its mostly due to the rising of Christianity and the reputations that were built from the lending industry- Jewish money lenders were a loophole many Christians who could not use loans as we have them now used to circumvent the church's law (which the church itself rigorously abused) and had interest on their loans. Kings and the church that had debts and what not would lead pogroms and kill off entire populations of Jews- and they created a social stigmatized hatred of the Jewish.

Communism isn't the reason why Judaism is for the most part a minority faith in most regions, and nor was it more effective then a rival organized religion- that was cultural bigotry at work. Even with Soviet system, even though Hebrew was not allowed to be taught in schools (as well as certain other languages the Soviet Union especially under Stalin, aim was to standardize the Union with a common language.)

It's the same story with the United States for the longest while not allowing native languages to be spoke or Spanish for that matter, only until the latter half of the last century did they allow it to be taught in standard curriculum. And if anything there was MORE persecution of Jews in the United States, not because the government led edicts against Judaism but because there was serious built up cultural distrusts of them due to the Christian roots of the populace.

If anything if it wasn't for Communist ideal much of Eastern Europe would've been an intolerable place to live for Jews, and the organized religions of Orthodox and Catholic churches and Islam certainly did not help, and if anything killed and persecuted your faith's population at every heed and turn. It wasn't just in Russia.

Keep in mind, I am stating ORGANIZED religions. I am going to blanket all organized religions with distrust because in order to be organized they have to be a socio-economic/political body, and while a government is also a form of organization its purpose is ascribed to be political- its a devil we know and can trust in the sense we know what they are on about. Organized religions get our full complete trust by using a person's faith to make them obedient. And I've seen many men and women tribute their wealth and time, energy and livelihoods to support organized religions, but unlike a government- even a corrupt one at that, they did NOT provide people and the populace with help and aid, with services to the extent they were paid and supported. It all ended up in the pockets of the higher clergy.

Even in the worst Soviet republics the government's provided basic healthcare, education and infrastructural services to their people. I cannot say the same for the organized religious bodies in most of the world, and I am glad secularism is dominant within governments now.

I don't hate religious faith Yitzi, or the people who have one. I hate the organizations that claim they support it and adhere to its guidelines but instead use it as a mist to cover their insidious greed.

[Yitzi]

I've met very few religious organizations that don't operate like a corporate business, if any. Otherwise they wouldn't be an organization.

Unless they operate like a non-profit organization.

And Jews faced that sort of discrimination in many nations- including the United States.

Not (in the US) to that extent from the state.  And there was similar discrimination from other nations back in the middle ages; I've got just as low an opinion for them.

Communism isn't the reason why Judaism is for the most part a minority faith in most regions, and nor was it more effective then a rival organized religion- that was cultural bigotry at work.

Ok, I can grant that it wasn't due to communism (though Marx himself had some...poorly thought out ideas about religion).

It's the same story with the United States for the longest while not allowing native languages to be spoke or Spanish for that matter, only until the latter half of the last century did they allow it to be taught in standard curriculum. And if anything there was MORE persecution of Jews in the United States, not because the government led edicts against Judaism but because there was serious built up cultural distrusts of them due to the Christian roots of the populace.

If anything if it wasn't for Communist ideal much of Eastern Europe would've been an intolerable place to live for Jews, and the organized religions of Orthodox and Catholic churches and Islam certainly did not help, and if anything killed and persecuted your faith's population at every heed and turn. It wasn't just in Russia.

And yet, I'm pretty sure that religious observance was reduced more by the Communist policies than the pre-Communist policies...

Keep in mind, I am stating ORGANIZED religions. I am going to blanket all organized religions with distrust because in order to be organized they have to be a socio-economic/political body

Not really; a body that functions similarly to the IAU (neither socio-economic nor political) would be enough for a religion to be organized.

Even in the worst Soviet republics the government's provided basic healthcare, education and infrastructural services to their people. I cannot say the same for the organized religious bodies in most of the world, and I am glad secularism is dominant within governments now.

Actually, when a religion effectively becomes the government, it usually does provide those services.

I don't hate religious faith Yitzi, or the people who have one. I hate the organizations that claim they support it and adhere to its guidelines but instead use it as a mist to cover their insidious greed.

So do I.  But your apparent assumption that all organized religious organizations are of that form isn't a valid assumption.

[Impaler]

I think the crux of this point about treatment of Jews in the Soviet Union is that to what ever extent they were mistreated, that treatment was not Antisemitism, but merely the mistreatment that most ethnic minorities suffered under.

Also I do not believe their is a single instance of organized religion failing to persecute minority religions, ethnicity etc once obtaining the political power to do so.  Unfortunately political revolutions do the same thing.

But political philosophies because they are based on reasoning how ever flawed are always going to be held to account for their failings by their internal populations.  Religion and any faith based doctrine can and always will retreat behind the impregnable walls of faith to resist change and deny culpability.  Soviet Bolshevism at least had the intellectual honesty to collapse under the weight of it's own failures and socialist the world over have gone 'back to the drawing board' in the generations since.

[JarlWolf]

Communist policies did reduce religious participation and membership- that was intended. And to be quite frank, while I don't hate religious faith, I don't agree to it and its not my heaviest concern. Considering the amount of oppression religious bodies make and the lack of accountability most religious organizations have (the Catholic church apologized for the crusades after... what, 800 years? What about the Spanish inquisition, the systematic rape and abuse of children in missionary schools in many European colonies?)

What of all the Jihadist wars and Mujahideen groups that slaughtered innocent people in the name of their god? What of the invading Israelite who cleansed the entire city of Jericho and other places back in ancient times and then again the invasion of Israel in modern times by displaced Jews? What of the Palestinians who raided Jewish Kibbutz before that and other extremist groups?

The thing is with non-profit charity groups is a lot of these groups aren't entirely as efficient as a government program would be. A lot of these said groups actually have funds that still do end up in the pockets of their executives- not all of them are like this, and some do help on legitimate basis, but there is many groups that are indeed in it for the money or indoctrinating people into their faith. Most of these groups, even if non profit, will do their mission to build say one infrastructural thing and then spend the rest of the time trying to preach and assimilate the community into their faith. They have another purpose of doing their service other then charity, and that is expanding their faith's control over more people and expanding their population of believers. The ideals of the people within that of course is they are "opening up their eyes to god" or some such viewpoints... but in comparison, there is socialist organizations who merely just built infrastructure and left. Without trying to indoctrinate the populace. Disaster relief and AID funds by governments socialist or otherwise do this all the time, and quite frankly clean up the mess more efficiently then a mere charity.

I am a firm anti-philanthropist, in the sense I believe that it doesn't exist. When a system relies on philanthropy needs are not going to be met, charity is not going to provide for people sufficiently and I've seen real world cases where this is so commonly proved that its horrifying.

When religion becomes the government it barely provided these services, on the contrary. Bring me an example where it efficiently provided for people, and maybe I might change my mind- but for the most part when Europe was dominated by the church or other bodies (Spain in particular, which was thoroughly church run) people were in great poverty and disparity, the populace was uneducated and for the most part- serfs. The French revolution and other great egalitarian movements that promoted secularism is what brought about public education, healthcare provided by the state, and actual caring of people's needs. Not religious organization or charity.

I am not making an assumption. I am making an observation of how the vast majority of religious organizations behaved and still behave like, the magnitude of how bad they are may have lessened from the past to present, but many of these greedy traits persist and quite frankly, have worsened in some instances.