Antiscience Beliefs Jeopardize U.S. Democracy

[JarlWolf]

I would tend to disagree, that while state sponsored agencies do have controls on them, the creativity and ingenuity is not. The first group to even approach space exploration was my nation under a Socialist regime. We sent the first sattelite up, despite what the rest of the world said. We pressed forward and led space related technology, and the internet itself: While not developed by the Soviet Union, would have not been possible without OUR scientific contributions in both satellite technology and other electronic communications developments. The Soviet Union was THE first to send humanity into space, Yuri Gagarin was the first into the void, and not only that we again the first to construct a orbiting space station.

With a Socialist regime, or state sponsored agency a lot of control and progress can be made. Say what you will about the flaws of Socialism and other such things, but private interests in space will not be focused on benefitting the whole of humanity and progressing technology for actual breakthrough's in spaceflight. What it will do is create more economic benefits of space exploration and capitalize on that: because there is no real profit in developing the actual space faring technology, there is profit in developing technology for exploiting resources out in space.

Without government sponsored space agencies, whether it be international collaborations or single states exploring by themselves (preferably the former) space exploration technology would not and will not progress further for the actual struggles and "obstacles" of space exploration that are irrevocably costly and steep.

What Corporate and private interests have to play in space exploration is promoting it. Promoting it, interesting people and making means to profit from space exploration and make it appealing to people. That's my opinion on the matter at least.

[Kirov]

Yep, I wanted to ask you if you're from Russia based on your post in that other thread about EM. Hello, neighbour!

Now, I must say I have to read more about the history of technology before I give more decided opinion on that issue. However, I would like to point out that I specifically mentioned an arms or space race as something regimes can be actually pretty good at. But if you really think about, a space program is more like a Secret Project than a tech, something that you can accomplish by assembling a bunch of brilliant scientists and putting a gun to their heads. And you can't really do the same and yell "Invent an iPad!". As far as I know, many countries tried to replicate the Silicon Valley (including modern Russia) and failed. I imagine the reasons are manifold.

And when I think of the Soviet science, what always comes to my mind first is Trofim Lysenko, a legendary biologist who tried to discredit Mendel's works and almost the entire legacy of genetics. Basically, he believed something along the lines that environment is everything and if you give dog food to a skylark, it will soon start to bark (ok, that's mine). His crazy ideas were "officially adopted" by the Bolsheviks and he used his powers and honors to actively persecute those who dealt with 'real' genetics (with one-way trips to the remote East included). Needless to say, his fantastic proposals greatly helped to devastate the agricultural landscape of Russia, while the Soviet biology was a butt of other scientists' jokes for decades. This is what you get when science requires a quality approval seal from politicians.

And at universities in Poland (and I imagine everywhere in the Eastern bloc) you actually had the Faculties of Marxism-Leninism! Think of the minds and resources wasted just to scientifically prove that our Dear and Beloved Leaders are, in fact, Dearest and Most Beloved Leaders.

The only thing good I remember about the Soviet tech is that it was sturdy yet reliable. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine has a USSR-made camera that still works. However, I can't recall any other aspect in which 'Soviet' would mean 'good' like you can say about Swiss or German.  Be it cars, phones or cassette recorders. I don't remember anyone nodding their head with approval and saying, 'oh, it's Soviet'.

Let's face it, while the USSR certainly accomplished many things at the cost of millions of lives, it perished as an agricultural-industrial system which always tried to 'catch up' with the West and failed miserably. The Americans started to shift towards a post-industrial, knowledge-based economy as early as in the 50s. In 1989, the East was backwards by decades.

So maybe Chine will be the one to put a man on Mars, but  if the next Steve Jobs is of Asian origin, I believe he will move to the US. Unless of course, the Bible belt America will take the rule.

But as I said, I need to read more about this topic. It is likely that what I say applies to certain sectors and what you say - to others.

[JarlWolf]

You are Russian as well? Zdrastivjat tovarish!


The problem with scientific advancement in the old regime was due to Stalinism and then the furthered, cemented problems it had even in later regimes, even the most anti-stalinist regimes like Kruschev. Though that's not the blame of the actual system itself, thats the blame of politicians who barfed upon the system and chokeholded it for their own ego. If there was similar people in the United States, and I believe there were just in different context, there would've been failures. And there has been, just in different departments of their society. (Primarily banking: lack of regulation caused poorly thought out loans to be given out which caused the banks to go into extreme debt because people couldn't pay off their loans. And this also caused the housing crisis.)
I never stated that the Soviet regime was the best regime either: But under a Socialist state sponsored space program, much more progress can be yielded. And again I refer to my old point: let private interests invent new ways to exploit resources in space, and capitalize on that. Stuff that will promote and interest people in space, because that's the innovation which will interest people. And the heavy lifting, the big costly projects can be handled by the more organized state programs.

[Buster's Uncle]

Jarl, he's a Pole; now you must conquer him.

[JarlWolf]

Jarl, he's a Pole; now you must conquer him.

Later.

I respect Poles quite a bit mind. Tough, brave sods and I've served with a number of them. Only issue I have with them is they have a bitter shell with me and my country, though to be honest I am a literal [progeny of unmarried parents] mutt, my ethnicity is hardly Russian, only my upbringing. My mother was a Belarussian and my father, my biological one, was a Manchu.

[Kirov]

Aah, the Polish-Russian relations. Volumes can be written on that one and still not say it all. I certainly hope here on Alpha Centauri we can be smarter than that and work for a better future. As far as I am concerned, I'd rather meet Russia in NATO and EU, the more the merrier. But for now it's just a song of a distant future, I'm afraid.

But you must admit both sides are hot-headed and quick to reach for the sabre. This is a part of the Slavic tradition I can hardly identify with, though.

As for the Communism, I don't have much good to say about it and any attempts to defend it sound to me like "at least under Mussolini, the trains run on time" (in fact they didn't, but that's another story). I used to believe in the narration of "good ideology, bad execution", and my nickname even comes from the first victim of Stalin (I was really young back then, but 'Kirov' still sounds cool), but when I read more about 1917-1937, I realized there was no escaping from bad execution. I still have very leftist opinions, but I think a democratic, lawful umbrella for progressive reforms is a must.

But I must say I understand your feeling about the capitalism. Russia's assets and resources were plundered by few oligarchs under liberal slogans, and democratic procedures became a mockery. No justice in the world, I'm afraid...

[JarlWolf]

Mhm... and do note: I am not for a Centralized Socialist Autocracy, thats what the Soviet regime essentially was. It was not Communist at all and to presume as such is foolhardy.

I am a Communitarian Communist, and the Crimson Comrades society defines my ideal pretty well.

I'll link you to it.
http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Crimson_Comrades

Basically, I believe in a more decentralized form of gov't: Regions are relatively autonomous are united via a Confederal, elected council with each representative a result of popular vote in their respective regions. Each council member is equal in status and decisions are both decided by direct democracy by citizens actually voting on issues, while other issues are left with the council. I think it's a fairly Socialist-Democratic system that adheres as realistically as possible to the original Communist ideal.

As for the communities themselves, they are very communal and vital resources like food, water and energy are shared. All infrastructure and public services would be government operated/publicly owned. The only form of Capitalism, if any, would be allowed would be private enterprise allowed for entertainment and related industries: The reasoning for that is that people always want better, bigger entertainment to keep them happy, and a system that can cater to the demand easier is superior in this field. Governments have a hard enough job managing things and keeping things running to care about citizens personal lives to that extent, so let individuals and others profit and innovate off of entertainment and such. There would still be enough gov't control to make sure things don't get out of hand, like preventing illegal forms of entertainment like dog fights, etc.
Ideally it would be covered by the gov't as well but no group or gov't is perfect. And if one has to compromise somewhere, its there.

[Kirov]

Fair enough, that sounds like something I could subscribe to, although I cannot help but wonder how people would f*ck up such a project, just because this is what people tend to do.

It's just I discovered that regardless of good intentions, it's very important to keep in place this pesky democratic stuff like a right to fair trial, independent judiciary, independent media, check & balance, etc. Once you press judges to mete out "people's justice" instead of simply justice, it's all going downhill straight to dictatorship. I'm not saying this is what you offer, I'm just describing my personal line between 'radical' (which I abhor) and 'progressive' (which I embrace).

I'm not cynical or something, but I wouldn't trust a system which expects/relies on people being good. They're not bad, either, more like "neutral neutral" in D&D terms.

[Buster's Uncle]

You're in a system which expects/relies on people being good, here.  I don't know how it could possibly be made to work scale up to nation-sized, but in a more modest context, it is doable.  Something like that might have been part of what Marx had in mind with the ultimate goal of small agrarian communities.

[Kirov]

You're in a system which expects/relies on people being good, here.  I don't know how it could possibly be made to work scale up to nation-sized, but in a more modest context, it is doable.  Something like that might have been part of what Marx had in mind with the ultimate goal of small agrarian communities.

Well, I concur using Marx as an inspiration, we're all equal and all that poo, but I wouldn't really follow his instructions in the 21st century. We are only more inter-connected and for example there are numerous issues in America which affect the folk in Europe and elsewhere quite directly (drug enforcement, copyrights, patent law, etc.). And don't even get me started on the current recession. So if anything, it's really high time to think globally, not in an eco-hippie way, but in a real, "let's create institutions which will enforce climate change/financial market regulations" kinda way. Of course, at the moment this is nothing more than an eco-hippie wishful thinking. Globally speaking, states are worse than teenage Wow players.

As for the ac2 community, if I wanted to prove that people are bad, your words would only support my point. I think our community here is very specific. Our average age is probably close to 40, we're united by the love to a game 15 freaking years old, with a rich world, hard SF background and very steep learning curve (I was once called a nerd just because as that "Alpha is the queen of games"). We're  everything but an average online community.

I don't play much MP in other games, but from what I heard, in games like WoW or EVE you get actual robbery of actual money (EVE), exploitation, sexual abuse, racism, freaking bio-terrorism (in WoW some players exploited a bug to infect others with a disease just because they could; actual epidemiologists now study this case), greed, theft, you name it. Here at ac2, I hope I didn't hurt your feelings when I say something like "I strongly disagree". We're a league of extraordinary gentlemen.

I was even surprised when I notices that you guys try to develop a set of rules for this forum, because I can't think of any other rule than "don't be a d!ck" and I can't think of any SMAC player who doesn't understand what it means yet is able to drop down a borehole. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't tolerate a troll here and would quickly report him and expect the moderators to take necessary action - it's just a danger that one stumbles here is minimal. But out there, in the online Wastelands, man... I'm sure we've all seen things we'd wish to unsee.

[Buster's Uncle]

Yes, but those abuses taught me lessons I wouldn't want to unlearn.

[JarlWolf]

Fair enough, that sounds like something I could subscribe to, although I cannot help but wonder how people would f*ck up such a project, just because this is what people tend to do.

It's just I discovered that regardless of good intentions, it's very important to keep in place this pesky democratic stuff like a right to fair trial, independent judiciary, independent media, check & balance, etc. Once you press judges to mete out "people's justice" instead of simply justice, it's all going downhill straight to dictatorship. I'm not saying this is what you offer, I'm just describing my personal line between 'radical' (which I abhor) and 'progressive' (which I embrace).

I'm not cynical or something, but I wouldn't trust a system which expects/relies on people being good. They're not bad, either, more like "neutral neutral" in D&D terms.

Yeah. I wouldn't put any censors on the media, and as stated, if there is a compromise to be made with Capitalism it is on entertainment: Which can include films, music and the like.
And do note this system doesn't rely on people "being good." It relies on a sufficient number of people to do their portion of the work, and that sufficient number doesn't even need to be half. Modern society in our CAPITALIST system survives on 20% (or less) of the people in a community actually doing the largest amount of work and I'd daresay its even lazier. And the majority of people, who may work hard and may work hard for their money don't get as much money as the next guy because he has connections and other such things. I am not going to bother discussing the flaws of Capitalism as I've done it quite a bit by now, but that's generally my opinion and my own personal experience and history to a large extent has validated it reasonably well.


And on the note of Marx, Marx's "instructions" are vague and ambigious: of which he intended when he wrote the book. He wrote it so that people anywhere could apply the ideal to whatever conditions they had and go with it. Proletarian simply means a person who makes a living via selling their labour as a service: which is over 90% of the world's population. The Bourgeois on the other hand are people who don't work for a living but rather make money by using the Proletariat to create wealth for them by labouring under their employ. I'm not saying that this is outright evil, it takes smarts to run a business, but the transaction system is odd and it often turns into an exploitative system. It's working in a plutocracy.

And mind Marx is going to be a bit outdated if you take the original carbon copy to heart because he wrote his works in the 19th century. The original ideals for democracy are also VERY outdated by today's standards, because they don't allow women or slaves to vote and its based on who owned property. Now in our society not everyone owns their own property, I'd daresay most don't. Lots of people rent property and if we were running on the pure original Athenian concept of democracy, a huge portion of our populations wouldn't be able to vote at all.

[Kirov]

You're right, there's no point arguing about the Marxism v. liberalism here, especially as we don't differ so much, actually. Probably similar ideals and sensitivities shaped by different environments.

Just came back from 'poly to bump some traffic there. Noticed that I registered there almost exactly 11 years ago, quite a bit but less than I thought. But I remember how I was lurking there (for a year or two, actually), too shy to start posting or playing. "Ooh, these guys are soo smart and cool and know everything about this game, better not to embarass myself."  I was actually not that bad even back then (or maybe even better than now), but was so shy to chat up with the giants.  Funny memory.

[Buster's Uncle]

Just came back from 'poly to bump some traffic there

You please me immensely, sir.    I'm checking that out right now.