Intro and quick question

[vulturesrow]

THanks to GOG I am back to SMAC/X after many years. I still have all the original materials but couldnt find my discs. I asked the following question at apolyton (Where I used to lurk back in the daY) but its a little dead there. When people are discussing base spacing and they say 2 apart or 3 apart does that mean 3 spaces in between or three tiles counting the one the next base is on? Im not sure why I find this terminology so incredibly confusing. ;0

[Buster's Uncle]

Hi vulture, and welcome to AC2.  I don't know, either, but someone will.

[gwillybj]

I hope I have this right:

2 apart has one space between the bases, as:

SBSBSBSBSBS
BSBSBSBSBSB
SBSBSBSBSBS
BSBSBSBSBSB


3 apart has two spaces between the bases, as:

SSSSSSSSSSSS
SBSSBSSBSSBS
SSSSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSS
SBSSBSSBSSBS
SSSSSSSSSSSS

This simply has a square (more correctly, a diamond) of eight spaces around each base.

[Green1]

Since no one else is jumping on this, I probably should.

Base placement. Each base extends 2 squares from the base center in each direction. The object of the game if you are not a noob like me is to make it to where no two base's square overlap. Unfortunately, especially when expanding early, inappropriate tangle of evil fungus,  or trying to claim those sexy mineral nodes that allow you to go beyond mineral cap; sometimes this is hard to do.

In picture one, you can see a bunch of bases.

You can also go under GAME--->MAP PREFERENCES--->SHOW BASE GRID if you are like me and too lazy to count squares. This will show you all the squares that particular city can work.

Notice example 3 of Mendelev College. All those squares that were in the red base grid lines are in the city screen to assign workers. Of course, since I am a noob and am not worthy of the leet sauce, notice the squares overlap with that of another city. But, I do not beat myself up too bad for city placement. That particular game, I was fighting a very nasty AI called the Antimind. Where that other city was there was a monolith (that has since disappeared ) and one of those mineral nodes. Since the Antimind is like Planet Cult on steroids, I needed to control those monoliths to keep them from moving back and healing. Moving back and healing is only for the Green 1, not Progenitor/Cyborg/Mindworm hybrids

[Yitzi]

Since no one else is jumping on this, I probably should.

Base placement. Each base extends 2 squares from the base center in each direction. The object of the game if you are not a noob like me is to make it to where no two base's square overlap.

Not always.  Having bases overlap minimally without "wasting" any space is also a viable strategy; the result of such looks like this:

SSSSBSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSBSSSSBSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSBSSSSS

And if you're going for a momentum game to try to win early on (so you're not building many facilities anyway), it can be worth putting them far closer together for the early advantage.

[Green1]

Since no one else is jumping on this, I probably should.

Base placement. Each base extends 2 squares from the base center in each direction. The object of the game if you are not a noob like me is to make it to where no two base's square overlap.

Not always.  Having bases overlap minimally without "wasting" any space is also a viable strategy; the result of such looks like this:

SSSSBSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSBSSSSBSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSS
SSSSBSSSSS

And if you're going for a momentum game to try to win early on (so you're not building many facilities anyway), it can be worth putting them far closer together for the early advantage.

Yeah... you have a point there, too.

That particular game, since it was on a huge, abundant lifeform map with the way the Antimind's AI is, I almost have to overlap and settle out. Antimind never seems to build lots of bases or infrastructure but absolutely floods the map with PLANET +4 (or greater) native life that is tough and lines of enemies ala Yang but over long distances over the vast wilderness. Sometimes, I had to leave huge spaces just to get closer airpower.

Any game with Antimind is rough.

[Yitzi]

If I were to play against antimind (just thinking about it; let me know if your experience indicates otherwise), I'd probably try to beeline for Trance and then the Neural Amplifier; between those (and hopefully the Command Nexus if you can grab it too), they should be able to handle Antimind's psi units, though you'll want to grab Empath Song too as well.  (Keep in mind, a worm costs it 65 minerals, and trance synthmetal troops cost 20, or 24 if running Power for the extra morale.  While the undocumented 50% psi bonus means they still probably won't win, they should do enough damage for your superior troop numbers to get the victory.)  The best time to attack is probably either right after Advanced Military Algorithms or right after Retroviral Engineering (for genejack factories); Fundie/Green/Power is probably the best wartime setting, especially if you use command centers and monoliths.  (Note that unless you're playing Gaian, University, Cyborgs, or Angels, Fundie+Power+command center+monolith=all elite units, which is incredible in any case, and triply so against native life.)

[Fal]

What's so bad about base overlap?  I always have some, and usually a significant amount.  Do you restrict yourself from using supply crawlers?

[Yitzi]

What's so bad about base overlap?  I always have some, and usually a significant amount.  Do you restrict yourself from using supply crawlers?

Base overlap means you can't grow your bases as high without supply crawlers; since crawlers bring in only 1 resource per square, they're not all that good a use of territory outside specialized situations such as mining rocky squares or farm/enricher/condenser.

[vulturesrow]

What's so bad about base overlap?  I always have some, and usually a significant amount.  Do you restrict yourself from using supply crawlers?

Base overlap means you can't grow your bases as high without supply crawlers; since crawlers bring in only 1 resource per square, they're not all that good a use of territory outside specialized situations such as mining rocky squares or farm/enricher/condenser.

This is true to a degree but sort of irrelevant. Crawlers are great from the early-to-midgame although there usefulness can drop off late depending on your terraforming strategy. But there is nothing that disadvantageous to having somewhat smaller bases and a whole lot to recommend for some sort of overlap. 

[Yitzi]

This is true to a degree but sort of irrelevant. Crawlers are great from the early-to-midgame although there usefulness can drop off late depending on your terraforming strategy.

Even in the early-to-midgame, they're not that great.  To compare various terraforming strategies in that area:
-Farm/solar (early game): Crawlers are worth a maximum of 2, working the tile is typically 3-4.
-Farm/solar (after Gene Splicing): Crawlers are worth a maximum of 3, working the tile is typically 1-2 above crawlers.
-Farm/solar (after environmental economics, with advanced terraforming): A square will typically be 3 nut/0-1 min/5-6 energy.  That's 5-6 from a crawler, but 8-10 from working it.
-Forest (before tree farm): Crawlers are worth 2, working is worth 4.
-Forest (after tree farm): Crawlers are worth 2, working is worth 5.
-Mine/road on rocky: This is where crawlers are actually fairly good.
-Borehole: Crawlers are worth 6, but working it is worth 12.
-Energy parks: Depends on the layout, but crawlers are generally worth 6 if you use a medium-former-time-intensive layout.  They can't be worked (bases interrupt the layout), but compare to 8-10 for farm/solar.

But there is nothing that disadvantageous to having somewhat smaller bases and a whole lot to recommend for some sort of overlap.

Actually, there is a disadvantage; Earthmichael can probably explain it better than I can (as he's the one who explained it to me.)

[vulturesrow]

This is true to a degree but sort of irrelevant. Crawlers are great from the early-to-midgame although there usefulness can drop off late depending on your terraforming strategy.

Even in the early-to-midgame, they're not that great.  To compare various terraforming strategies in that area:
-Farm/solar (early game): Crawlers are worth a maximum of 2, working the tile is typically 3-4.
-Farm/solar (after Gene Splicing): Crawlers are worth a maximum of 3, working the tile is typically 1-2 above crawlers.
-Farm/solar (after environmental economics, with advanced terraforming): A square will typically be 3 nut/0-1 min/5-6 energy.  That's 5-6 from a crawler, but 8-10 from working it.
-Forest (before tree farm): Crawlers are worth 2, working is worth 4.
-Forest (after tree farm): Crawlers are worth 2, working is worth 5.
-Mine/road on rocky: This is where crawlers are actually fairly good.
-Borehole: Crawlers are worth 6, but working it is worth 12.
-Energy parks: Depends on the layout, but crawlers are generally worth 6 if you use a medium-former-time-intensive layout.  They can't be worked (bases interrupt the layout), but compare to 8-10 for farm/solar.

The problem with all this is that if you are playing optimally you will have many terraformed squares that will be unworked because your growth will be outpaced by your terraformers. I would rarely advocate crawling nuts or energy early game unless you have a really good square. You definitely should not (and cant) build energy parks in the early game. You're mostly using crawlers to boost your mineral output so you can get your industry rolling quickly and start snagging those important SPs (which can be be sped along by sending crawlers to said base).

But there is nothing that disadvantageous to having somewhat smaller bases and a whole lot to recommend for some sort of overlap.

Actually, there is a disadvantage; Earthmichael can probably explain it better than I can (as he's the one who explained it to me.)
[/quote]

I'd love to hear it. It would have to be a powerful argument to convince me that overlapping isnt optimal base placement.

[Yitzi]

The problem with all this is that if you are playing optimally you will have many terraformed squares that will be unworked because your growth will be outpaced by your terraformers. I would rarely advocate crawling nuts or energy early game unless you have a really good square. You definitely should not (and cant) build energy parks in the early game. You're mostly using crawlers to boost your mineral output so you can get your industry rolling quickly and start snagging those important SPs (which can be be sped along by sending crawlers to said base).

Yes, that could make sense, especially since you get the minerals spent on the crawlers back at the end anyway.

I'd love to hear it. It would have to be a powerful argument to convince me that overlapping isnt optimal base placement.

PM him and invite him to contribute.  While on the topic, I'd love to hear what he has to say about crawling minerals early to get your industry rolling and start getting projects.

[Tarvok]

Actually, I believe there is an advantage to using many, many crawlers. Once you're past technicians and librarians and have moved on to engineers and thinkers, you get the ability to choose whether your population units are producing (for example) 3 nutrients + 2 mineral + 2 energy on the one hand, or 3 energy + 2 research (engineer), the equivalent of five energy per unit.

And once you're putting up things like genejack factories and quantum converters, you don't want all your base's potential minerals anyway, not unless you're trying to sink the world, anyway. So for me, the ideal endgame base has the majority of the living population living a specialist's life, with a few bringing as many minerals (along with the nutrients and energy) as the base can safely process, and crawlers bringing in massive amounts of food to support massive numbers of specialists.

Even mid-game, I try to have a few bases set up like this if I'm playing an "aggressive market" strategy. I can home my airforce there without having to use punishment spheres.

[Yitzi]

Actually, I believe there is an advantage to using many, many crawlers. Once you're past technicians and librarians and have moved on to engineers and thinkers, you get the ability to choose whether your population units are producing (for example) 3 nutrients + 2 mineral + 2 energy on the one hand, or 3 energy + 2 research (engineer), the equivalent of five energy per unit.

By that point, you can get a lot more than 3/2/2 if you're willing to put in the former time.

And once you're putting up things like genejack factories and quantum converters, you don't want all your base's potential minerals anyway, not unless you're trying to sink the world, anyway.

Or are playing with revised ecodamage rules so that ecodamage isn't as much an all-or-nothing affair.

So for me, the ideal endgame base has the majority of the living population living a specialist's life, with a few bringing as many minerals (along with the nutrients and energy) as the base can safely process, and crawlers bringing in massive amounts of food to support massive numbers of specialists.

Endgame (say, after transcendi) is another story; I have been persuaded that crawlers should be the best choice by that point (though the resulting focus on single-resource squares is still undesirable).