I want to play moar

[t_ras]

too much philosophy here and too little settings...

[funbot]

well as far as i noticed, settings that i putted there couple post earlier havent changed much.

Expect for houserule for nervegas and obliterate only allowed at police+2.

We just need now confirmation for kirovs and bodiesseys factions and then we are rdy to go .

(unless sudden objections appear from our more quiet participants)

[Yitzi]

Ok, let's play a medium map, I'll think about my faction choice and drop you a line today or tomorrow.

The things is, I agree with you and I'm not a true builder myself. I met some players with the approach "let's build all facilities in all bases" and find it boring as well. But some industry and tech level is in order because I find little elegance in 2-1-2 or 4-1-2 rushes (if only for the fact that you don't use mixed units here, you just mass produce one design).

Another option, for Santiago in particular, is to grab the Command Nexus (or failing that build lots of command centers), run Fundie, and go for 2-1-1 or 4-1-1 units (Santiago+Fundie+command center+monolith=elite unit, giving you that second movement point a lot cheaper than anyone else.)
Also, about the 2-1-2 or 4-1-2 rush, note that 1-2-1 units can generally successfully defend against a 2-1-2 rush if they're in a base, and with a perimeter defense can even handle  4-1-2.  Of course, this requires restricting nerve gas.
Of course, Miriam can have a decent chance of overwhelming even that, but by the time she gets 4-1-2 you've got a decent chance of getting 1-3-1 with perimeter defenses.

Expect for houserule for nervegas and obliterate only allowed at police+2.

I was actually thinking of the more general rule set:
All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

[funbot]

I was actually thinking of the more general rule set:
All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

Well, sure, that sounds good too.......

Um, i'm kind of loss here, your activity here implies that you are eager to join the game but earlier i understood you Dont want join the game.... Sooo which it is?

[Yitzi]

Um, i'm kind of loss here, your activity here implies that you are eager to join the game but earlier i understood you Dont want join the game.... Sooo which it is?

I'm not interested in joining this game, but still interested in discussing it.

[funbot]

I'm not interested in joining this game, but still interested in discussing it.

Such heresy

[funbot]

You know what guys, I actually started to consider to swap my faction and show more gentler side of me by picking Peacekeepers as my chosen people. After such warmongering mp i recently had, it might be fresh change for pace ....


 

[Bodissey]

I confirm I'm still interested. Any faction will do.

[Kirov]

OK, Morgan it stays for me.

[funbot]

right, so, our settings are now:

Me - Peacekeepers
Kirov - Morgans
ronin - hive / uni
Bodissey - random
+ 3 random Ai

Patch: kyrub

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108

Planet size: Standard

Land coverage +50%, rest planet settings are random

Difficulty Trancend

All victories enabled

Do or Die enabled

Tech stagnation Off

Spoils of war Off

No unity survey and no unity scattering

Random events: Off

And suggested houserules: All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

No stockpiling

choppers highest attack value allowed is 4,

Players are expected make their turn once a day, with 3 days force turned. If this happens twice in a row, player will be replaced or turned to Ai

Take it away mr CMN and do your magic pls

--edit-- Forgot land coverage
--edit2-- Forgot planet size -_-
-edit3- added 'pls' to end

[Kirov]

And suggested houserules: All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

Everything is fine but I'm strongly against this one rule. The reason is very simple - it will greatly benefit the Hive, already a very strong faction. Further, I see no reason why to dabble with atrocity rules. Simply put, I'm not convinced they are OP (ok, we can discuss nerve gas, but even then making it dependent on POLICE will only make matters worse as Yang is our first candidate to steamroll through the Planet with X gas anyway).

No stockpiling

This is solved in the kyrub's patch, so it's one thing easier for you. Completing facilities should no longer yield cash.

[Kirov]

All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

Let me start with saying that I don't see any need to modify atrocities.

But even if I did it, the above rule seems nice on paper but I'm afraid in practice it doesn't take into account the game balance. If we wanted to translate it into actual gameplay situations, it would mean two things:

- you can't run FM to inflict a no-base atrocity
- you must run PS to inflict a base atrocity.

Not only I don't see any logic here if we look at things like that, but also:

- this benefits the Hive in both ways
- this benefits other momentum players for reasons I fail to see
- this penalizes Data Angels from the start, already not the premium faction (also Deirdre which is a good faction, but she is weaker than the Hive in my view, so it's still unbalanced)
- this penalizes all FM users, for reasons I yet again fail to see (why FM Morgan shouldn't induce Genejack Warfare with his probes is beyond me).

Basically to simplify things a bit, this rule can be boiled down to: "in most standard situations, Hive, Santiago and Miriam can nerve gas, others not so". I'm sorry, but I can't accept it in my games.

Also, this concept says openly that you need +2 POLICE to use a Planet Buster against a base, but with 0 POLICE you can "only" nuke units, even if it's a former just next to a base. It doesn't look very serious to me, guys... 

EDIT: OK, I've just noticed this thing about Planet Buster that it can't include a base. Still, the above rule fixes a thing which ain't broken in my opinion. If you have an issue with atrocities (or nerve gas specifically) we may house rule a ban on all atrocities (or nerve gas specifically) for all factions equally (I'd keep base obliteration as a nice tactics thing). I just don't agree to this rule in its current form (i.e. the Hive has a bonus I don't know why).

[funbot]

ohkay, how about we just ban nervegas. Rest attrocies are restriction free.

[Yitzi]

Let me start with saying that I don't see any need to modify atrocities.

But even if I did it, the above rule seems nice on paper but I'm afraid in practice it doesn't take into account the game balance. If we wanted to translate it into actual gameplay situations, it would mean two things:

- you can't run FM to inflict a no-base atrocity
- you must run PS to inflict a base atrocity.

Not quite.  It also means that Deidre and Roze (unless they get the Ascetic Virtues) need PS to inflict any atrocity and can't inflict atrocities on bases at all (this idea actually began as a way to make Deidre's -1 to POLICE actually mean something), and if Santiago gets the Ascetic Virtues she doesn't need PS (it also has effects once future societies come along.)

Not only I don't see any logic here if we look at things like that

A more oppressive society can get away with more without the citizenry preventing it.

- this benefits the Hive in both ways

It makes a lot of sense that Yang would be the one to use atrocities the most.  I do see how it might be unbalanced if INDUSTRY isn't depowered (and Yang with it), though.

- this benefits other momentum players for reasons I fail to see

It's not so much "benefits momentum factions" as "penalizes people who try to wage war under Free Market".  Which probably is a good thing.

- this penalizes Data Angels from the start, already not the premium faction

Not really, as Roze really likes Free Market anyway.  It is a slight penalty, but Roze is actually fairly strong when there are a lot of roughly evenly matched players (as then her tech ability allows her to be around the middle with no effort, so she can either grab the stuff no one else is going for and be fairly high-up in tech, or ignore labs and pump economy to subvert everything.)

(also Deirdre which is a good faction, but she is weaker than the Hive in my view, so it's still unbalanced)

It would need weakening the Hive...I originally intended it as part of a mod that would actually end up strengthening Deidre slightly

this penalizes all FM users, for reasons I yet again fail to see (why FM Morgan shouldn't induce Genejack Warfare with his probes is beyond me).

Logically, because POLICE measures the oppressiveness of your society and oppressive societies are more able to do atrocities.
In game-play, because FM is fairly powerful.

Basically to simplify things a bit, this rule can be boiled down to: "in most standard situations, Hive, Santiago and Miriam can nerve gas, others not so".

Why are Santiago and Miriam less likely to run FM than anyone else?

Also, this concept says openly that you need +2 POLICE to use a Planet Buster against a base, but with 0 POLICE you can "only" nuke units, even if it's a former just next to a base.

I'd keep base obliteration as a nice tactics thing

So then what's to keep someone from using air power to take a high-value base (losing substantially more units than they destroy, but they're able to focus their units a lot better) and obliterating it so the other guy can't take it back?  With base obliteration difficult, you can make it easier to defend against air so that taking a base with air power is very inefficient and the other guy can take it back with land units more easily, but with easy obliteration you can do so much damage that no air power fix will be sufficient without making air power completely worthless.

ohkay, how about we just ban nervegas. Rest attrocies are restriction free.

Obliteration+air power is even more overpowered than nerve gas.

[Kirov]

I think the source of confusion here is that Yitzi presented his wishlist and forgot to mention that those are his ideas to his mod, and then funbot thought they are actual house rule proposals for our game. Let's not mix it up. These are things Yitzi wants to work into his mod, not his conditions to join our game.

Yitzi, you tend to confuse SMAX with your mod, so you seem like you're commenting one and in fact you're talking about the other. Whenever I address gameplay issues, it's obvious I mean regular SMAX 2.0 with proper patches and not your mod. I don't care that your rule works fine if INDUSTRY is depowered. It isn't depowered right now, we're talking and playing SMAX here, where INDUSTRY works as it has always worked. We can't accept your idea as a house rule because in that future mod of yours the Hive's gonna be weaker, this makes no sense. So let's make sure we know which thing we're discussing at the moment. Taking your mod concepts as house rules is not going to work fine in SMAX. 

To sum up shortly other stuff - things may work differently in your mod, but I'm mostly fine with the way atrocities work as they currently do. When I say 'logic', I mean gameplay, not realism. A new rule is illogical just because the rich get richer. Realism's not that a big issue for me. We're talking about the game in which it takes several years for a jetplane to fly around the globe. I know hitchhikers faster than that. So I don't care much where Yang stands on atrocities, he's not getting any further bonus because he doesn't deserve one.

So then what's to keep someone from using air power to take a high-value base (losing substantially more units than they destroy, but they're able to focus their units a lot better) and obliterating it so the other guy can't take it back?  With base obliteration difficult, you can make it easier to defend against air so that taking a base with air power is very inefficient and the other guy can take it back with land units more easily, but with easy obliteration you can do so much damage that no air power fix will be sufficient without making air power completely worthless.

It is not my experience that obliteration is OP, I've never heard such opinion from players more experienced than me, I've never heard veterans banning or moving to ban it. On the contrary, when we banned atrocities in our game with Earthmichael, he gladly accepted base obliteration as an exception. So there is that. I concur funbot, let's keep atrocities as they are except for nerve gas which can go. I understand concerns about nerve gas.

Also, air power can't 'take high-value bases' just like that, needles and choppers simply can't capture bases. To this you need gravships or Locusts of Chiron, both very rare if for diferent reasons.