SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I beg to differ. Any fixed bonus is a no strategical choice as it clearly was in vanilla. People just build it without much thinking. Proportional facility beneficial on condition which requires thinking. You won't build them everywhere even when you got the tech, do you? That is your answer.

It doesn't matter how soon you get the tech as long as item cost is right. In vanilla people get Network Nodes at level 1 and what? They didn't build it until their bases grow to some pop 5 with sizeable energy input. That is absolutely correct strategical balance.

I have increased RT cost some more. I should do it initially but was tempted to give mineral boost cheaper. Now I see that was a mistake. It should cost as much as it should.

[bvanevery]

Any fixed bonus is a no strategical choice as it clearly was in vanilla.

You can't always be thinking / planning about this game, in terms of some far off mid to late game "payoff".  Massive gains in the early game, count for tons.  This is kind of 4X 101, that better early game moves pretty much determine the rest of the game.  That's pretty much a problem with the genre, the foregone conclusions.

People just build it without much thinking.

By replacing "Recycling Tanks is always an automatic minor benefit" with "Recycling Tanks has a cost, but doing it early is the key to winning the game" is not improving the situation.  If something will win you the game, it's not a thought, and you pay the cost.  That's what cash from supply pods is for, paying your initial costs.

I buy your godawful expensive Command Center because it is necessary.  The only actual thinking is only building one of them for awhile.

You won't build them everywhere even when you got the tech, do you?

Most bases will eventually have 6 minerals, so when that happens, yes it gets built "everywhere".  The only thinking is when to build it, not if.

It doesn't matter how soon you get the tech as long as item cost is right.

False, because inability to get started building something in the early game, does matter.

In vanilla people get Network Nodes at level 1 and what? They didn't build it until their bases grow to some pop 5 with sizeable energy input. That is absolutely correct strategical balance.

False.  If science is at 4, Network Node is ok to build.  6 is better.

Details idiot benefactor

idiot benefactor

Meanwhile, here's the kind of stuff I pull with my allies all the time.  I don't need research!  My allies are gonna rubber band me through most of what I need, with many of the Secret Projects excepted.  Not all though.  Sometimes they just give up an uncompleted SP tech.  Yeah sure, the Peacekeepers are "near" the Usurpers, and have even managed to send a few units to my front with them.  But the AI really has no understanding of the payoff value of its largesse.  I don't need more tech, I need the productivity to harness the tech I'm given.

MY 2195.  Next turn I will complete the last Recycling Tank in the Monsoon Jungle.  I'm working on 3 SPs.  2 of them complete in 2 turns.  Only the Consciousness is even trying to do one, and they don't stand a chance of winning.  I've got a Command Center city that's starting to pump out ECM Synth Laser Infantry, to deal with the huge pile of Usurper Recon Rover spam that's building up.  I've got my 1 port city building a Skunkworks, and with Lal's gift, I'll put a Naval Yard on top of that.

Details another useful idiot

another useful idiot

I guess the Data Angels want the Usurpers "real dead" too.  This is pretty silly.  I haven't lifted a finger, not even 100 turns have gone by, and I've been given Genejack Factory capability if I want it.  And I probably don't even need it, because Recycling Tanks alone are good enough!

I'm gonna laugh out loud if they finally give me Fundamentalist.  I can't even remember what tech that comes with.

MY 2197.  By completing the Universal Translator, I learn Fundamentalist on my own.  Well it will eventually cost me Lal and Roze as allies, but frankly who cares?  ...Oops, minerals weirdness with my SP after going Fundamentalist, caused me to replay the turn.  This time I got Fusion Power, so no easy Fundamentalist yet.  Not like I need it.

Details Lal You're Incredibly Stupid

Lal You're Incredibly Stupid

MY 2199.  The Empath Guild is only like the most important SP for the Peacekeepers.  Yet he traded it for Fusion Power.  It's not like Fusion Power is all that important in WTP.  At least Roze finally thinks I have enough tech, that she didn't just give me something.  I could buy a couple of Level 2 techs from her if I had the money.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Any fixed bonus is a no strategical choice as it clearly was in vanilla.

You can't always be thinking / planning about this game, in terms of some far off mid to late game "payoff".  Massive gains in the early game, count for tons.  This is kind of 4X 101, that better early game moves pretty much determine the rest of the game.  That's pretty much a problem with the genre, the foregone conclusions.

You are talking about different things and avoiding the main point. Please argue with my statement and don't just add irrelevant words into discussion.
"Massive gains in the early game, count for tons" - true. I didn't say it is not.
"early game moves pretty much determine the rest of the game" - true. Who said different?

My point is: any fixed bonus does not supply strategical decision. Try argue with that if you can.
You want to add fixed bonus to new base - piece of cake. Add to base tile production in alphax.txt. What's the problem with that?

The problem with vanilla RT is that it is redundantly add resources to base tile which can be done in configuration. The fact that it requires 1-st level tech and 40 minerals changes nothing as everybody has to pay that and everybody receives same benefit. No opportunity to outthink opponents.

So I removed this quite useless feature and added some other that really boosts early game progress and also requires certain level of thinking whether you want to apply it or not and at every single base. Why are you arguing with that? Just for the sake of arguing?

If you look at overall game pace then you cannot not notice that this mod is about 4 times more dynamic than vanilla. Increased growth speed, formers at start, removed yield penalties. Vanilla until tech level 4 was just a drag with excruciatingly slow growth and really nothing to build. It really picked up only toward mid game. I have moved all these toward the beginning giving you an opportunity to beat the game by properly using these early boosts. Which you actually proved yourself in previous games. Why contradict your own experience now?

People just build it without much thinking.

By replacing "Recycling Tanks is always an automatic minor benefit" with "Recycling Tanks has a cost, but doing it early is the key to winning the game" is not improving the situation.  If something will win you the game, it's not a thought, and you pay the cost.  That's what cash from supply pods is for, paying your initial costs.

If you really don't see a difference then there is no point in further discussion.

[bvanevery]

The problem with vanilla RT is that it is redundantly add resources to base tile which can be done in configuration.

Having to build stuff costs time, which is a resource in any wargame.

added some other that really boosts early game progress

No kidding. 

and also requires certain level of thinking whether you want to apply it or not and at every single base.

The only thought is when does the base go to 6 minerals.  The benefit is so powerful, that grabbing the best minerals supplies at the beginning of the game, determines the game.  The "certain level of thinking" is only this.

Just for the sake of arguing?

Do you really believe I tell you straight up what's wrong with your mod, so that I can enjoy some argument?  You think that's my motive?  When are you going to start playtesting your own mod, as much as I am?  There may also be the problem that you've played enough in the past, that you think certain things are "good", when they are not.

Vanilla until tech level 4 was just a drag with excruciatingly slow growth and really nothing to build.

Actually I feel similarly restricted because you've made certain things so godawful expensive, like Command Centers.  I'm still waiting waiting waiting for the Command Nexus to complete.  Secret Projects are the usual way of getting ahead in vanilla, and you've denied that.  Couldn't avail myself of Genejack Factories because I couldn't afford the maintenance on them, until I finally got Energy Bank tech.  Have to build Hologram Theaters to keep the growing cities happy.  Have to build Hab Complexes to keep their growth rate from slowing down.  It's not all that different as far as needing to build basically 5 facilities.

Meanwhile the AI puts out loads of low level spam.  I finally got that under control, mainly with my own ECM Synth Laser spam from my 1 Command Center city.   Just blocking up my border.

Started making Biology Labs in my cities that have nothing left to build anymore.  They're way cheaper than Command Centers and won't be a waste once the Command Nexus is built.  Now spewing Democratic mindworms.  They're not reliable as far as killing stuff, but they do inflict wounds, and they make the large fungal patch between us a much more formidable barrier.  Also, mindworms don't require support when sitting in fungus.

My 1 Naval Yard with piles of minerals, is completely sweeping out the Usurper ocean spam.  Not even a challenge.

If you really don't see a difference then there is no point in further discussion.

2 different kinds of easy decision.

[bvanevery]

Details usurped

usurped

I made it to MY 2282.  The redundancy of combat, and pushing units slowly to the front, has gotten the better of me.  There's nothing wrong with my position, I just don't want to do it anymore.  1:30 AM tends to have that effect on me.  This game has gone on a fair number of days, although I can't remember how many.  Turns get longer when you're pushing so many units around.  Looking at older posts, looks like this was the 5th night playing.

I had just started a 2nd front with the Hive, via a land bridge.  Not a problem for my production.  I've built most of the SPs, and I can cough up plenty of fighting units.  But I have to move those around and fight with them, and there's... so much spam to overcome.

I wasn't able to waltz in as fast as I thought I'd be able to, due to all the spam in my way.  I could have done it if I didn't build all the SPs.  However, happiness and money have been constraints.  SPs are helpful in overcoming those.  When I quit, I'd just finally built the Virtual World.  I still haven't built any Genejack Factories.  Bad for happiness, money, and the planet.

My main armament at the end was the ECM Fusion Silksteel Infantry.  Mostly I built a lot of those.  I had a few Fusion Synth Speeders, Fusion Synth Batteries, and ECM Silksteel Skirmishers for support.  Eventually stopped using Democratic mindworms when the last one from the old batch died.

[bvanevery]

Details what's left of them

what's left of them

Version 257.  Made it to MY 2255 as the Believers.  2 AM gave me the yawns.  Not really into stomping the University anymore.  They put up very little resistance.  Although I think making armor more expensive again is a good thing, I think the U. lacked ECM units.  It's as though the AI decided not to build so many of them, compared to previous test games.

I just made lots of various kinds of Speeders for the most part.  The U. was of course no match for my productivity.  As usual, getting the research I needed wasn't even a challenge.  My view is in WTP the University has all kinds of major disadvantages for research bonuses that aren't even worth anything.  Meanwhile I played much of the game at -4 RESEARCH, once I went Fundamentalist, and it didn't even matter.

This time I only built the Merchant Exchange and the Command Nexus initially.  I used up a lot of Artifacts for the latter, and still had to wait awhile.  Nevertheless it was worth it.  Eventually I built a Genejack Factory in my capitol and ended up with the Living Refinery, giving me +4 SUPPORT.  That was it for my SPs.  I finally stopped building Chaos Rovers and started to build Energy Banks, intending to start on Tree Farms after that.  I ended up being Fundamentalist Green with a 40-30-30 budget to keep my expanding empire happy.  I wasn't making any money, although I had developed a 600+ bank account that wasn't getting depleted.

Not exactly a fan of the invincible Sensor Arrays, but they certainly didn't stop me from clobbering the U.

Oh, and for the record, they declared war on me.  When they thought they had the advantage.  In terms of tech armor, sure, they did.  But how long was that supposed to last them?  So easy to steal their stuff.

Not much point in building Silksteel defenders if you can't really crank those units out fast enough.  My main defensive unit was the Trance Plasma Garrison.  In other words, I was far more worried about the occasional mindworm interloper, than anything the AI players could hope to do to me.  I had a few ECM Silksteel units on my front line initially, but Zhakarov's ability to hit me back in any way, collapsed pretty quickly.

[bvanevery]

MY 2267 as the Cult of Planet.  That faction choice was not random: I only playtest with "good" factions nowadays.  I did the usual thing of grabbing the biggest mineral deposits immediately, and putting Recycling Tanks on top of them.  The AI has no clue how to do this, and it puts me way ahead.  You can see how easily I dominated the early Secret Project races, even with a -1 INDUSTRY penalty.  I goosed the Human Genome Project along with a bunch of Artifacts from my trivial sweep of the fungus.

I have deliberately not invaded anyone yet, because I know that unit pushing wears me out and makes me hate life.  The time is almost nigh though, because I'm completing Tree Farms in many cities, with Genejack Factories following as happiness permits.  I'm Democratic Planned with a 40-30-30 budget.  Tech as usual has been no problem to obtain.  What I used to trade for, nowadays I just steal.  My plan is once I'm ready to invade, or once my cities finally start rioting again, I'll finally go Green.  Then my mindworms will be pretty strong.  I can also make any conventional units I want.

Details production incompetence

production incompetence

The Believers are supposedly the leading faction according to the power graph, with the Hive right behind them.  They were gifted the Monsoon Jungle at the start of the game, yet they've built no advanced facilities at all.  Not even a single Recycling Tank!  They know the tech, that's not the problem.  They just don't have a clue how to make a productive city.  All they do is spam, and that results in a giant skeleton empire that's no threat and tedious to overrun.

Details the sadness of belief

the sadness of belief

Here's one of the best cities they've got, and they've got a good handful about this size.  7 minerals and still producing Colony Pods!  Even though they declared war on me for ideological reasons quite some time ago.  They've done nothing to me at all.  Look I don't mind having the luxury to build up even more than I strictly needed to, but this is gross incompetence.

Details let me show you how it's done

let me show you how it's done

Here's what a real city looks like, when you've been playing properly the whole game.  This used to be my 2nd best city but with the Tree Farm, it has pulled into 1st.  My other biggest mineral city put out a lot of Fungicidal Synth Rover Formers, which have given me quite a lot of competent terrain improvement.  The Believers, in contrast, have a pretty crap road network, and seem to be overemphasizing Condensers.  I never build those.

Details nobody builds Recycling Tanks

nobody builds Recycling Tanks

The Believers aren't exceptional.  The Gaians, Spartans, and Data Angels haven't built any Recycling Tanks either.  I don't have infiltration to any other factions, but it won't shock me if it's the same for all of them.  This is incompetence rising to the level of a bug.  Gonna have to file an issue about that, and I really don't see the point of playing any more test games until it's fixed somehow.  This is a showstopper.

If I continued this game, the results would be just like the previous 2 test games.  Lots and lots of unit pushing across the adjacent skeleton empires, with very little resistance.  In the sheer amount of time it would take me to do that, maybe the most distant empires could amass some kind of competence, who knows.  But it is way too boring to find out.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

The Believers are supposedly the leading faction according to the power graph, with the Hive right behind them.  They were gifted the Monsoon Jungle at the start of the game, yet they've built no advanced facilities at all.  Not even a single Recycling Tank!

Need tweaks in production priority calculations. Working on it.

It actually would be useful to keep these saves and then rerun them with new version and see if AI acts better on production choices.

[bvanevery]

I have a save from MY 2129, that for some reason I was going to post about, but didn't.  So here it is.  You could crank up the Scenario Editor, and run an AI vs. AI game to test that.  If you get the AI to build Recycling Tanks at all, that would be progress in the right direction.  Unfortunately I do not have any earlier save than that.  Still, 29 turns shouldn't be a dealbreaker for Recycling Tanks advantages gained.

Of course a flaw in the plan, is if I don't build the Human Genome Project early, and no one else does, then Biogenetics may not be known by so many factions.  Still, you could just assign everyone to have Biogenetics.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

That should be enough.

I don't get how to run AI vs AI? Isn't it like 1 human and 6 AIs in game fighting all against all?

[bvanevery]

I made a cookbook for how to do it, somewhere in these forum posts.  Probably in the Theory of Everything forum.  The basic idea is you have to play the 1st turn yourself, then switch to only watching a different faction.  Also you are going to need a physical weight to put on your Enter key.  I made one out of pennies and duct tape.  You are not going to be able to do anything else with your computer while this is running.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Do you mean that human faction is still human but don't participate in game? Like a single base with all units on hold not producing anything and just skip your turn?
I do this all the time to test AI development.

[bvanevery]

No, I don't.  Follow what I said, to play an AI only game.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

How do I find you cookbook among thousands of pages?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

# Version 259

I think I'm done working on this one. Too many changes. Will continue working on AI in next releases.