Fission Armor mod (SMAX)

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Yes, I thought about the same. Not both things combined, though. It would effectively add 50% to defender in undefended base. Seems pretty harsh for me but still may be worth trying.

As for infantry vs base bonus. I guess it was give to infantry to encourage its use. Otherwise, it would make no difference sending infantry or speeders against bases. However, even without the bonus the economical difference is still there. Pure attacker infantry is more than twice cheaper than speeder. Here is your advantage. Moreover, you can armor infantry for comparatively low cost. Whereas armoring speeders is a money waste.

[bvanevery]

Yes, I thought about the same. Not both things combined, though. It would effectively add 50% to defender in undefended base. Seems pretty harsh for me but still may be worth trying.

I'm not sympathetic.  I'm playing with a stock binary, where AIs stomp other AIs for various reasons.  Favoring defense is a way of slowing all of that down.  More WW I for the AIs.  More of the game being about building up cities than invading cities.

It is contingent upon testing, I'm not going to just release it "cold".  But the last time around, when I cranked Sensor Arrays from +25% to +50%, IMO the game got better.  It could happen again.

Otherwise, it would make no difference sending infantry or speeders against bases.

There is still a difference.  There's no such thing as an anti-infantry debuff.  Infantry + rails is still a good strategy for knocking someone's block off.  However, making infantry not special for city assault, may cause players to think about more mobile strategies with Speeders or Hovertanks.

Pure attacker infantry is more than twice cheaper than speeder.

Yep.  Yet more reason why infantry rulez.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Yep. Infantry bonus is off.
Now need to think whether I want to strengthen base or sensor or both. Base seems to be indestructible one. However, this sort of diminish perimeter value. Whereas sensor is all purpose area defense everywhere on your territory even if destructible.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Here are two versions I consider now.

1.
Infantry vs base is off
Base defense 50%
Sensor 25%
Native attack 3:2 to match intrinsic base defense.
May need to return Hypnotic trance and Empath song back to 50% each. They are now 25%.

2.
Infantry vs base is off
Base defense 25%
Sensor 50%

Both have their merits.

First one gives bonus defense for free but for base only and it doesn't stack with defense structures. Native attack also need to be strengthened to match base defense. Otherwise, they won't have much chance disturbing units there.

Second one invests in something you need to build even if paying with terraforming time. It also covers whole territory and even slightly beyond borders. Destructible, though. Also I don't like how much it increases tachyon defense: 3*1.5=4.5 - that is insane multiplier.

Haven't decide yet.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Added both actually just to see how it plays.
Cannot have more than 5 attachments in post. Need to put them somewhere to download section.

[bvanevery]

In my mod thread, when I run out of room with the 5 slots, I've moved my earliest version to the post where I announced its release.  So they're all still there, but you'd really have to dig for them now.  It's not the best system, but I'm not going to set up a GitHub for work that only I contribute to.  I've always thought, if I get to the point where I really think development is *done*, then I'd make some "final resting place" page instead of the development thread.  But that's yet to happen.  Every version I do, I keep thinking it's the last one... maybe this time it really is?

I never nerfed Trance or ECM in my mod.  They do however cost 1, they're not free.  I think mindworms probably still have the upper hand in my mod, so I wouldn't want to weaken Trance.  Recently I've created Trance 3-Res and ECM 3-Pulse predefined units.  I also upgraded my Trance Colony Pod to Trance 3-Res Colony pod.  It takes twice as long to make, and it comes midgame so doesn't really help with earlier spread, but it's pretty bulletproof against marauding mindworms or locusts.  It also can fend off casual attacks, i.e. Scouts and Scout Rovers.  The AI will build these things, but it doesn't happen until midgame.

I'm also making several abilities have cost 2 or 4, things that I don't want the player to have like Dissociative Waves.  Or in the case of drop pods, orbital insertion warfare is coming much earlier, so they need to be pricey to reflect that.  Cost 4 is 100% cost increase, although I haven't paid good attention to whether the cost models work out that way or not.  I used to have every ability only cost 1, but I'm realizing that some abilities really are unbalancing and should be penalized.  Mainly the offensive debuff abilities.  I'm not really worried about units moving faster, in fact I never remember to build those kinds of units because I do everything with rails.

[bvanevery]

Details stronger base defense

stronger base defense

Here is a practical consequence of upping the inherent base defense to +50%.  I'm playing as the Gaians and have been wandering this mindworm around for some time.  The Usurpers can actually hold me off with a mere Scout.  Granted, the Usurpers get +1 MORALE.  With an ordinary faction, or an untrained unit, I might be able to wipe the base.

Details wimps vs worms

wimps vs worms

Later on I encounter a Scout defender who is only Disciplined.  Even this is enough to make it unlikely that I'll win.  The net effect of increasing base defense is to make them safe from single mindworm attacks, whether factional or wild.  I might be ok with that.  You can still get killed by a mindworm wandering about in the bush, and a stack of mindworms during a global flooding can probably mess you up.

[bvanevery]

Details a modest invasion

a modest invasion

An advantage to the increased defense bonus, is I don't have to drop what I'm doing to deal with early threats.  The Usurpers are sitting on the Monsoon Jungle with some separation between our empires.  They can walk to me, and even bring some force, but logistically they aren't able to field vast numbers of units against me quickly.  Still, 4..5 units at a time can be annoying.  Many of them shoot at my Synthmetal defenders and die.  Some of them kill my defenders.  I've built very few offensive units and mainly just concentrate on building up my infrastructure.  I haven't built any Perimeter Defenses at all.  I like that this is just "jerks on my border" rather than the game dictating what I'm going to do right now.  It has more of a Builder game feel to it than an earnest combat feel.

I should be starting a mindworm offensive relatively soon, as I just acquired the ability to make them myself.  I'll go Green to get to +3 PLANET.  Then we'll see if that's enough offense to punch through their defenses.  Nobody's got Hypnotic Trance yet, as I moved it back to Secrets of the Human Brain and blocked with Information Networks, which is a pure Discover tech.  Depending on who's in the game, it can keep anyone from learning Discover techs for a long time.  I could change my research focus to Discover, but I'm sticking with a pure Explore focus for now, since that's the AI default and I want to see what problems the AI would encounter.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

With native attack 3:2 you have to have 50% base defense to equalize worm attacks. Otherwise they will win 80% of time.
With my 5:4 it's only 25% overhead, so 25% base defense is enough to get equal chances.

[bvanevery]

Base defense isn't the only factor though.  I seem to recall that in my testing, doing anything less than 3:2 seriously hurt the PLANET factions.  They just didn't have any offensive teeth anymore.

I am unable to go on the offensive!  Marr keeps spamming me with 3-3-1 units.  They can't really harm me, but I feel I have to kill them, lest they tear up my terrain improvements.  Also if I'm ever to bring the fight to him, I have to clear those units out of the way.  Due to a perceived need to build Secret Projects, to compete with everyone else in the game, it's just not working.  The war part of the game is like WW I, although I take few losses.  The AI doesn't get bored of this though, and I do.

I could get nasty and use chemical weapons.  I wonder why I'm refraining.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Nope. Not the only one. At least one, though, which is also inherent.

[bvanevery]

I've decided in my mod, Soporific Gas Pods are out.

I have relented.  Rather than getting rid of them entirely, I'm going to try making them more expensive.  This is a more conservative approach than outright getting rid of game content.  I feel 100% comfortable getting rid of Choppers, but I do not feel that way about various other things.

The driving problem is, I don't have time to test all the changes I've made.  For instance despite pushing orbital insertion warfare earlier, I just can't stand to play my own mod long enough to get to that part of the game!  My testing hasn't been valueless, I've prevaricated and changed a number of earlier game features, I think for the better.  But getting to late game still takes a long time, and I think the ultimate effect of my tech tree compression is I've made orbital insertion earlier, not early.  Players might not even notice that I did it all that much. 

My 1.27 release is getting stalled trying to nail down "every last detail" like this.  It's easier to kick something out the door that isn't going to be an awful change in someone's mind.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Both approaches are valid. In my view, however, there is no point in having feature that is at least somehow is used by AI as well. Otherwise, balancing become even more complicated. Now we need to distinguish human vs. AI and AI vs. human and AI vs. AI combinations.

What's up with choppers, man? With your weapon and armor equaled they don't present such a threat.


I was testing no infantry vs. base bonus, 50% intrinsic base defense, 50% sensor. Here is my opinion. I don't think small changes matters much. Player ability to knock out an opponent are enormous. Defense bonuses are just a multipliers to faction military power, which depends on military technology progress and percentage of economy dedicated to war. When one faction put all their efforts into conquest and their neighbor put 0% to defense - no amount of defensive bonuses saves them. I observed it quite often.

In short, very high defense bonuses slow down the pace of conquest from blitzkrieg to one base per 5-10 turn something rate. This allows victim to mobilize and consolidate on second line of defense, call in for allies help, and better confront aggressor or make peace with them by inciting war weariness in their empire. However, no amount of defense bonuses going to stop a conquest completely for dedicated enough faction. At hardest level they all have inherent +3 INDUSTRY and this allows them to build massive military at will. I observed bases with contemporary defenders, walls, and sensors falling to same strength attackers consistently just because there was uninterrupted attacker supply and not too many defenders. Same with me fighting against defended opponent - it is not impenetrable at all. This is just a matter of economy price for victory.

So I decided to keep these defense bonuses high as in 1.8. It feels like a good game and a base conquering price feels fair.

[bvanevery]

Now we need to distinguish human vs. AI and AI vs. human and AI vs. AI combinations.

I have noticed.  The biggest policy impact for me, has been realizing that Predefined Units are not for the human player's benefit.  They are for training the AI to build stuff.  The ability to train the AI in this manner is limited.  It will seem to like some unit designs and not others.  It may build something and then completely not use it as intended, for instance Needlejet Colony Pods, Drop Colony Pods, or defensive armored probe teams.  If the AI won't use predefined units intelligently in the real world, I get rid of the designs.  My predefined unit design list for 1.27 is smaller than it used to be.

My defensive policies are also partly an AI vs. AI concern.  It slows down their ability to trash each other, encouraging empire growth and solidity.

What's up with choppers, man? With your weapon and armor equaled they don't present such a threat.

I don't yet trust the tech in this tree.  I think human players will find some way to design a unit that overcomes any defensive strictures I've put in place.  I need to see playtesting evidence.  If people howl about choppers being gone, then I'll have to think about what to do.  But over the years I've mostly heard howling about how they're overpowered.

I don't think small changes matters much. Player ability to knock out an opponent are enormous.

Hasn't seemed enormous to me lately.  Some combo of my mod and my personal play style.

When one faction put all their efforts into conquest and their neighbor put 0% to defense - no amount of defensive bonuses saves them. I observed it quite often.

I'm playing on Huge maps where factions don't necessarily even get into military contact for a long time.  Such a setup implicitly prioritizes defense.  It's defense in depth, like trying to conquer Russia.

At hardest level they all have inherent +3 INDUSTRY and this allows them to build massive military at will.

But in the stock binary, they misuse all that material.  They don't concentrate force, they just have it all wandering in the wilderness as some kind of scouting trip line.  Human player zings up to a base, wipes it out, throws a ton of units out of SUPPORT.  Eventually as more cities collapse this way, units just die for lack of SUPPORT.

What Thinker Mod does could be very different, but is not my concern.

In my test of your mod, it was the early factories other factions got, the eco-damage, and global flooding that waylaid me.  Not the armies.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

What's up with choppers, man? With your weapon and armor equaled they don't present such a threat.

I don't yet trust the tech in this tree.  I think human players will find some way to design a unit that overcomes any defensive strictures I've put in place.  I need to see playtesting evidence.  If people howl about choppers being gone, then I'll have to think about what to do.  But over the years I've mostly heard howling about how they're overpowered.

The chopper power is in multiple attacks. However, this power manifests itself only when you can deliver sure multiple kills. With weapon-armor equalizing I cannot even imagine how much attack advantage you need to achieve that on top of Airspace Complex and AAA tracking which already quadruples defense. It is not a question of your technological advantage but the question of enemy technological disadvantage. They should be in a stone age to be able not to defend against your choppers well. If this is the case one does not need choppers to win.

I don't think small changes matters much. Player ability to knock out an opponent are enormous.

Hasn't seemed enormous to me lately.  Some combo of my mod and my personal play style.

I meant potentially deep resources. When one faction is very determined to throw everything at enemy they overcome the defense anyway.

I'm playing on Huge maps where factions don't necessarily even get into military contact for a long time.  Such a setup implicitly prioritizes defense.  It's defense in depth, like trying to conquer Russia.

At hardest level they all have inherent +3 INDUSTRY and this allows them to build massive military at will.

But in the stock binary, they misuse all that material.  They don't concentrate force, they just have it all wandering in the wilderness as some kind of scouting trip line.  Human player zings up to a base, wipes it out, throws a ton of units out of SUPPORT.  Eventually as more cities collapse this way, units just die for lack of SUPPORT.

Yep. I mean the extra production compensates for lack of tactics. With this production they can still achieve the result.