Transgender bathrooms?

[Rusty Edge]

Thanks for your clarification edit, Elok.
I have to agree with that as well as your assertion about sociology getting in the way of science in this area.


If were to edit my own post I would add that butchering or necropsy of an apparent but oddly behaved female might reveal an undescended/ undeveloped  testicle, as another example of such outliers.

Anyway, appearances can be deceiving, and animals don't wear clothes to make it harder.

EDIT: I usually declare my vote in the poll, but I forgot to mention that I voted "I don't know".

[DrazharLn]

The student union at my university has non-gendered bathrooms. I've used them, it's no big deal and they make my trans friends feel a lot more comfortable (particularly if they don't represent as their desired gender everywhere yet - two of my Male to Female trans friends represented as women in private but as men/androgynous at work).

I strongly agree that bathrooms should be unisex.

[Buster's Uncle]

Worth noting that my sole experience with a non-family/residence ungendered bathroom, a renfair campground, it was no big deal.  -To me, not just the weird godless hippies.  Everybody excretes, and given room for booths, nobody saw my privates and I'm not uncomfortable being seen washing my hands.

I still think it's not happening anytime soon on any great scale, but there's that.

[Valka]

As for the Gay Uncle, you're not the first to propose it.  The difficulty is that homosexuality is tantamount to sterility, so the gay uncle advantage (and/or heterozygote advantage) would have to be positively enormous to offset.  Gay uncled kids would need to be something like fifty percent more likely to survive for it to make sense.  Which doesn't mean homosexuality doesn't have biological roots--it certainly seems to--but the jury is still out on why it's there or what it's for.

Given modern reproductive technology, gay men can have biological offspring. All it takes is a clinic/hospital, an egg donor, and a woman willing to carry and give birth to the child. Custody arrangements should ideally be made with the help of a lawyer, to avoid messy situations where one or both adults change their minds.

[Buster's Uncle]

-Which is irrelevant to the theory, being even possible for one generation now.

And I THOUGHT I was missing something I wanted to respond to on my last pass:

As for the Gay Uncle, you're not the first to propose it.  The difficulty is that homosexuality is tantamount to sterility, so the gay uncle advantage (and/or heterozygote advantage) would have to be positively enormous to offset.  Gay uncled kids would need to be something like fifty percent more likely to survive for it to make sense.  Which doesn't mean homosexuality doesn't have biological roots--it certainly seems to--but the jury is still out on why it's there or what it's for.

Obviously, the name gives the drift away, but let's see if I can't defend this hill.

Now, this isn't based on anything but a broad sense of the tides and trends of history -and I can't imagine statistics about the demographics of ancient Greece/Rome/what-have-you that are worth anything are even possible- but there's an appearance that civilized, peaceful, urbanized times and places see a lot more expression of alternate sexual modes.  (Whether that's to do with more gayity or more OPEN gayity may or may not be relevant.)

Still, in, for instance, modern America, the traditional circumstances are certainly met - the key one being high population density/pressure.  Mylochka and I are not gay, but it's a safe bet that neither of us is going to breed, and are functionally, Buster's gay aunt and uncle.  (This gets into the most obvious part, but just dotting all my Ts and making sure I'm clear.)  I've both most decidedly channeled my thwarted complex of breeding instincts into a profound unconditional love of my niece -I know I've never done anything to hint that she matters to me; sorry for the shock- as the closest to progeny of my own I can hope for, and --- has anyone reading had nieces/nephews before having their own kids?  I expect those parents can confirm that the sibling's kids got infinitely less cute allasudden...

Look; stuff could happen to her parents, and she has a life advantage that not absolutely everyone has - I would do anything for her, and I'm not making cousins to take up space and compete for resources.  I'm not compounding overpopulation, and that's an advantage for the rest of the species - but in evolutionary terms, Elok, your kids aren't passing on half my genes, and she is.  She's got two possible substitute parents in addition to her grandparents, which is a non-trivial completive advantage.

IF there's a hereditary genetic component to alternate sexual modes that tend to at least breed less, there has to be a distinct advantage inherent to keep them from disappearing, QED.  To the extent my observations about historical circumstantial trends are correct and relevant, and the base-assumptions hold, the logic seems to work.

(I can think of a myriad of alternate explanations proceeding from different assumption sets [stable civilizations at peace leading to nodes of lasting high population density also feature a lot of people with too doggon much time and opportunities to get up to 'no good' on their hands, for the strongest] and freely acknowledge that this entire line of thought couldn't get a lot less rigorous, but I don't think you could say that it was ridiculous, or wrong on its face.  The trends/circumstances I point out aren't imaginary, for all of being nigh-impossible to relevantly research and prove...)

[Elok]

Quick thoughts:

WRT reproduction, one of the things that annoyed me about the gay marriage fight was that, even if gay marriage is "not real marriage," it should not matter to conservatives for that very same reason.  The decline of marriage is horrifying because it leads to broken families and general misery.  But gay couples are effectively sterile, and can only have kids by adoption or biological hocus-pocus, both of which are outrageously expensive at this point.  Gay people with kids are therefore very unlikely to be single parents juggling three part-time jobs and living with a series of dubious partners just to make ends meet.  So who cares if they want to file their taxes jointly?

Re gay uncles, I wasn't just speaking for myself there; I once read an extended blog post by an apparently secular evo bio type arguing that the gay uncle thing just won't work mathematically.  A fifty percent offspring survival advantage really would be quite spectacular.  Even if you toss in some HZ advantage, I have a hard time buying it.  Really it's just a puzzle all around, and the simplest answer imo would be some mix of environmental factors inducing it in addition to a modest genetic component.

[Buster's Uncle]

Probably - I certainly didn't manage to make the strongest part of my argument on the benefits to Buster, and have no way of even faking the probabilities.

The assumptions are just a bit of a house of cards, too, until somebody really nails the cause(s) of homosexuality; I find the near-universal anecdotal evidence that people are either born that way (or get that way incredibly young for reasons they cannot fathom) convincing that it's no choice - but it's all a mystery, really.

I hope I've been consistent in hinting that I don't think I know enough to judge.


My sister likes to say, of gay marriage, that since gay men's promiscuity (let's not front) is inherently offensive to theocons, their opposition to Mark and Seth going to see a judge and settling down to a life of monogamy makes no sense.

[Buster's Uncle]

Charlotte, N.C., passes transgender rights bill: Will state let it stand?
The controversial measure bans discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender expression in housing and places of public accommodation.
Christian Science Monitor
By Bamzi Banchiri  3 hours ago



The city of Charlotte, N.C., leapt to the forefront of a national debate on LGBT rights on Monday with the passing of a law granting transgender people the right to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity.

The law, passed by the Charlotte City Council in a 7-4 vote and set to take effect in April, bans discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender expression in housing and places of public accommodation. The measure includes a controversial revision that allows transgender residents to choose to restrooms corresponding to the gender with which they identify.

Similar so-called bathroom bills have sparked heated debates in local and state governments around the United States in recent months. Supporters of such bills see the provision as a preservation of the dignity and safety of transgender individuals. Opponents say that the measure opens the door for sexual predators to gain access to bathrooms of the opposite sex.

The debate has become particularly contentious when it comes to restrooms and locker room facilities in public schools. Charlotte's law does not extend to public schools, but that has not removed contention from the debate, which has set the city's Democratic mayor to butt heads with the Republican governor.

"I'm pleased that Charlotte has sent a signal that we will treat people with dignity and respect, even when we disagree," Charlotte Mayor Jennifer Roberts said moments after the vote.

North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory (R) has previously said that considers the provision allowing transgender people to select which bathroom they use to be a threat to public safety and has warned lawmakers that the state could step in to negate the vote.

"This action of allowing a person with male anatomy, for example, to use a female restroom or locker room will most likely cause immediate State legislative intervention which I would support as governor," Governor McCrory wrote in the email to two Council members.

More than 140 members of the public packed a council hearing before the vote. Some self-identified Christian conservatives, also expressed concerns that the nondiscrimination law would allow transgender people – and men posing as trans – to sexually assault women in restrooms.

Bathroom attacks has been a potent argument for blocking and repealing LGBT nondiscrimination laws, yet there are no, “documented cases in the 17 states and 225 other cities with such laws on the books of people using the policies for nefarious purposes,” according to Buzzfeed news.

Last year, concerns over such attacks torpedoed a similar nondiscrimination bill in Houston. Similar concerns prompted South Dakota legislators to pass a bill earlier this month requiring students to use bathrooms corresponding to their sex at birth. The governor has expressed support for the measure but also said that he will do more research before deciding to sign or veto the bill.

This is not the the first time the Charlotte City Council has introduced such a bill. A similar measure was narrowly defeated by the Charlotte City Council in March 2015, even after the removal of a provision that would have allowed bathroom use based on gender identity. Local officials later announced that transgender people could use the bathrooms corresponding to their gender identity in the city- and county-owned facilities.

Advocacy group Equality NC issued a statement criticizing McCrory for "perpetuating the same tired and debunked myths about transgender people and public safety."

Other opponents of the measure – including some clergy and business owners – have sent the City Council a letter saying businesses should have the right to refuse service based on sexual orientation or gender identity.

This report contains materials from The Associated Press.

http://news.yahoo.com/charlotte-n-c-passes-transgender-rights-bill-state-145002610.html

[DrazharLn]

there are no, “documented cases in the 17 states and 225 other cities with such laws on the books of people using the policies for nefarious purposes,” according to Buzzfeed news.

Great citation, Yahoo/Associated Press.

I imagine it's true, but it's still a bit annoying. I really think that journalists should up their citation and correctness game.

[Buster's Uncle]

Bad journalism is universal, as I've been saying forever.

[Unorthodox]

--- has anyone reading had nieces/nephews before having their own kids?  I expect those parents can confirm that the sibling's kids got infinitely less cute allasudden...

The vituperator bore progeny before we did, however, given the family dynamics, I only saw her maybe once or twice a year before Kyle was born, and I was sure as hell not allowed to hold the baby or sit the toddler by any stretch of the imagination, so I can't really comment much on that side of things. 

However, my younger brother has 2 little dolls I don't see near enough, and I've corrupted sat hEt's sister's kids every chance I've had taking them to all sorts of Uno styled fun. 

Actually, I'd say all the nephews/nieces that were born after we stopped having kids I probably have a stronger bond than those born before/while we had babies of our own.  Probably boils down to more of my attention needed on my own kids leading to a lack of young bonding with the nephews/nieces.

That and kids either love me or hate are terrified of me.  There's no middle ground. 

[Buster's Uncle]

Another wince-heavy week as a North Carolinian over here, with a great deal more coverage of our Neanderthal state legislature and Governor passing a screw all discriminated-against people bill than there ever was that our largest city passed a pro-trans ordinance in the first place.  It's embarrassing to have your state going through a nasty throw-back phase.

Y'know, crap on the buttclowns in Raleigh and all, but anyone poking fun and lumping us all in together while sitting in a state where no city has passed such an ordinance deserves to be struck by lightning.

[Buster's Uncle]

Re gay uncles, I wasn't just speaking for myself there; I once read an extended blog post by an apparently secular evo bio type arguing that the gay uncle thing just won't work mathematically.  A fifty percent offspring survival advantage really would be quite spectacular.  Even if you toss in some HZ advantage, I have a hard time buying it.  Really it's just a puzzle all around, and the simplest answer imo would be some mix of environmental factors inducing it in addition to a modest genetic component.

Okay, a point I didn't quite make clear enough, or buried; the reason I came up with a Gay Uncle theory in the first place:  trying to make evolutionary sense of why gay is a thing, and not terribly uncommon at all.

IF there's a hereditary genetic component to alternate sexual modes that tend to at least breed less, there has to be a distinct advantage inherent to keep them from disappearing, QED.

-On the other hand, I actually know a girl who's the product of a gay father in a sham marriage (and believe me, the ramifications on that family and her are worth a thread of its own) and I DO wonder what the historical statistics on THAT are...

[Valka]

What I'm about to say may offend some people, but I do think that some fears are warranted.

It's not impossible that a sexual predator could use the "use whatever bathroom/dressing room makes you most comfortable" law to simply stroll in and attempt to commit an assault.

After all, anyone saying "heywaitaminute, this is the women's bathroom, you can't be here" would be accused of bigotry/hate crime if they challenged the person. They can't ask for the person's medical/psych records to prove that they're transgendered...

I'm not saying there would likely be many incidents, but to expect that there would be zero incidents is hopelessly naive.

[Unorthodox]

Stupid net ate my post.

Situational awareness is always a key wherever you are. 

I don't think people expect zero incidents.  I think they expect no increase in incidents, since the dude wanting to assault someone in the restroom right now isn't going to care about the sign on the door.  I guarantee someone is going to use the law as an excuse if they get arrested for assault.  PROMISE.  I think the point is more that statistically, they don't expect to see an increase.  Now, if it makes it more difficult to convict the creeps might need to come into the thought process.   

Truly transgendered people tend to look/act the gender they feel.  I really don't think people will stop questioning that creepy bearded dude heading to the ladies room.  More a don't freak out if the lady washing her hands has an Adam's apple and speaks in a baritone.