Question: Should "attacking along road" count fungus+Xenoempathy Dome

[Yitzi]

There is a moddable (0 by default) combat bonus for attacking along a road.  If the attacker's faction owns the Xenoempathy Dome, should this also apply when attacking from one fungus square to another, or only an actual road?

[Nexii]

I would say no, only actual roads (which could be two fungal tiles also).  I feel like this is an oversight in two ways

1) Xenoempathy Dome turns fungal squares "into" roads when this isn't how it's worded.  It's just supposed to give you faster movement speed in fungus.  For example normally native life takes a full movement point to move in and out of fungus onto a tile with a road (assuming the fungus tile doesn't have an adjoining road itself).  With Xenoempathy it's as if there is a road joining the fungus and the road.
2) 'Movement speed along roads' variable when modified will also modify the movement speed of native life through fungus. 

So more or less they have one variable that functions for both and they took the lazy way of making fungus tiles essentially 'roads' for the purposes of native life.

I think the solution would be to make native life movement speed and movement along roads as separate variables.  Xeno shouldn't function as adjoining to roads, only as roads 'within' the fungus itself.  You should have to build roads in/out of the fungus to get that boost otherwise.

Only semi related, but I always found it a bit illogical that native life got a bonus for attacking into fungus but never from defending in fungus.  Both combat scenarios would take place in the fungus

[Yitzi]

I would say no, only actual roads (which could be two fungal tiles also).  I feel like this is an oversight in two ways

1) Xenoempathy Dome turns fungal squares "into" roads when this isn't how it's worded.  It's just supposed to give you faster movement speed in fungus.  For example normally native life takes a full movement point to move in and out of fungus onto a tile with a road (assuming the fungus tile doesn't have an adjoining road itself).  With Xenoempathy it's as if there is a road joining the fungus and the road.
2) 'Movement speed along roads' variable when modified will also modify the movement speed of native life through fungus. 

So more or less they have one variable that functions for both and they took the lazy way of making fungus tiles essentially 'roads' for the purposes of native life.

I think the solution would be to make native life movement speed and movement along roads as separate variables.  Xeno shouldn't function as adjoining to roads, only as roads 'within' the fungus itself.  You should have to build roads in/out of the fungus to get that boost otherwise.

Separate variables would be a bit tricky due to how things are structured, but could be done*; nominate it as a mod if you want.  However, that wouldn't explain whether attacking along fungus should be the same as attacking along a road.

*This would actually be done with three values: A numerator for moves taken up by fungus, a numerator for moves taken up by roads, and a denominator common to both.  To reduce it to two values would be so difficult as to almost certainly not be worth it.

Only semi related, but I always found it a bit illogical that native life got a bonus for attacking into fungus but never from defending in fungus.  Both combat scenarios would take place in the fungus

Everyone gets a bonus for defending in fungus.  (However, neither of those bonuses apply to psi combat...)

[Nexii]

Denominator common to both would be fine I think.  I can't think of a case where you'd really need the movement denominators to be different from one another.  You can express anything as a fraction.  For that matter I think you could eliminate the need for the third variable and just hide it (the denominator would just be calculated as the least common multiple of the two numerators)

Combat in fungus is probably another topic anyways

[Yitzi]

Denominator common to both would be fine I think.  I can't think of a case where you'd really need the movement denominators to be different from one another.  You can express anything as a fraction.  For that matter I think you could eliminate the need for the third variable and just hide it (the denominator would just be calculated as the least common multiple of the two numerators)

Now that I think of it, as long as that's done when loading the data and not every time it's used (which is a huge number of places), that would probably be feasible as well.  But even so, it's probably better to use a denominator, as if, for instance, it's 1/3 moves for fungus and 1/4 for road, then even after moving in fungus it would be easier if it showed 9/12 moves left, which will be less confusing if the denominator were automatically in alphax.txt.

[Vidsek]

  I have to agree with Nexii in his first post: easier along a road, easier within fungus with the XD, but not between fungus and a road.  If the two have different values, that is even more interesting.  How it is implemented is beyond my education level in coding.

  Psi attack uses different physics from "regular" combat - some sorta metaphysical weardness - so it doesn't surprise me that the rules for it could be different

[Nexii]

Actually you can sort of argue that the other way.  Correcting myself above.  Into fungus you get reduced movement speed with native life.  It's only out of fungus that the movement speed reduction doesn't apply.
So probably with XD the movement reduction should apply for non-native military going into fungus, but not out of fungus

[Eadee]

Okay, I thought this poll is about some kind of combat-Bonus when someone attacks from one road tile to another road tile... not something about movement. I'm a bit confused now.

[Yitzi]

  I have to agree with Nexii in his first post: easier along a road, easier within fungus with the XD, but not between fungus and a road.

Yeah, "from fungus to a road" is a bug.  (From a road to fungus isn't; native life gets to move at 1/3 cost from any square into fungus).

Okay, I thought this poll is about some kind of combat-Bonus when someone attacks from one road tile to another road tile... not something about movement. I'm a bit confused now.

You are correct; the movement discussion is a tangent, but the actual poll is about the combat bonus for attacking from one road tile to another road tile (0 by default, changeable via alphax.txt), and whether it should apply to the fungus pseudo-road as well.  However, given that the fungus pseudo-road is a function of "moving into fungus" rather than "moving from fungus to fungus", and native life already has special rules for attacking into fungus, it probably was intended to be just for roads.

[Geo]

I voted no.

On another note, does this mean that if a modder changes the amount of tiles a unit can 'drive' on a road, native life also has the same changed movement cost in fungus? And at length normal units in fungus as well with the Xenoempathy Dome?

[Nexii]

Yes currently they're shared Geo.  For example I lately I've been playing with 1/6 movement cost along roads.  This also means that native life has 1/6 movement cost through fungus.

On topic I say no because the wording of XD is it gives movement benefits and doesn't mention attacking benefits.  It's just an oversight due to how roads and fungus shared movement logic.

Here's a better example - XD doesn't make non-native life get a bonus for attacking into fungus.  If you said the road bonus should apply with XD then you'd also have to change that.

[Yitzi]

I voted no.

On another note, does this mean that if a modder changes the amount of tiles a unit can 'drive' on a road, native life also has the same changed movement cost in fungus? And at length normal units in fungus as well with the Xenoempathy Dome?

Exactly.  Making these separable is a potential future change.

[Nevill]

Voted no. The mechanics for moving alongside roads and fungus are different, and should stay that way.

Yeah, "from fungus to a road" is a bug.  (From a road to fungus isn't; native life gets to move at 1/3 cost from any square into fungus).

I also do not think it's a bug. The unit spends full MP cost for moving from a non-road tile into a road, but that doesn't apply to fungus. I always thought the XD was meant to give your units the exact same movement benefits on fungus that the wildlife gets, and nothing else.

[gwillybj]

I'm with the not-a bug group, keeping it simple, as in: moving through fungus (from one fungus space to another) is speeded to the road rate defined in alphax.txt., but moving from road to fungus or from fungus to road costs a full MP or more depending on the terrain rules.

[Yitzi]

Voted no. The mechanics for moving alongside roads and fungus are different, and should stay that way.

Yeah, "from fungus to a road" is a bug.  (From a road to fungus isn't; native life gets to move at 1/3 cost from any square into fungus).

I also do not think it's a bug. The unit spends full MP cost for moving from a non-road tile into a road, but that doesn't apply to fungus. I always thought the XD was meant to give your units the exact same movement benefits on fungus that the wildlife gets, and nothing else.

That's what I think too...but native life spends full movement when moving from fungus to a road, and so the fact that units with the XD don't is presumably a bug.

I'm with the not-a bug group, keeping it simple, as in: moving through fungus (from one fungus space to another) is speeded to the road rate defined in alphax.txt., but moving from road to fungus or from fungus to road costs a full MP or more depending on the terrain rules.

Actually, for native life for with XD, moving to fungus is speeded no matter what you're moving from.