Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Dio on May 03, 2014, 01:51:52 am

Title: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Dio on May 03, 2014, 01:51:52 am
Do you think it could be argued, based upon ;yang;'s quotes, that The Hive could be highly interested in technology or research? What are Miriam's motives for creating the Believers? What type of government structure would they create?
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain ascepts of the original seven factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 03, 2014, 02:05:23 am
Well, Yang is all about human potential in the tech quotes and SP movies.  I don't think that's hard to reconcile with the totalitarian aspects, given the eastern value for harmony and devotion to the group over the individual.  The Superior Man will adapt and rise wherever he finds himself.  His tools are not how he proves himself superior, but he would not shun equal or better tools, being wise.

Miriam loves Jesus, and appears to me to come from a rather harsh Calvinist background - I fancy her plainness to be largely by design, or she'd have combed that lump out of her hair before answering the comm.  Charismatic leaders -which she's supposed to be one of- don't forget those sorts of details by accident.  Her tech quotes and project movies are those of a ethicist questioning, but not inherently hostile to science.


Are these opinions helpful/what you're looking for at all?
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain ascepts of the original seven factions
Post by: Dio on May 03, 2014, 02:18:34 am
I always felt that the developers had ignored the fact that Zakharov's official background states him as being a engineer and not just a researcher. I also felt that Yang would certainly be willing to have his elite people do strictly controlled research that could potentially benefit his closed society.

I would give Zakharov +1 SUPPORT, halved raising and lowering elevation costs, Automatic discovery of any tech known by three other factions, Tech Costs reduced by 25%, and 2 free tech picks at the start of a game. I would then give Yang +1 RESEARCH, 1 additional labs at each base, and Free network nodes at each base plus two other bonuses.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Nexii on May 03, 2014, 02:44:03 am
I'm not sure that Yang would be all that much for research than anyone else.  It could be argued like Zak that he has less ethical barriers to it (goals of the group, etc).  If anything though I felt Yang should get police/probe bonuses - and police state should give the same.  Given all we've seen since SMAC came out, probe (internet security) has become a big thing for totalitarian regimes and I imagine it would only become more important.  See Lal's quotes on The Planetary Datalinks.

As for Miriam I'd envision her government to be Fundamentalism, the Conclave is mentioned a lot so I'd imagine she would have a number of bishops/cardinals of both genders at the top.

Personally I'm more for factions with less bonuses/penalties: around 3 bonuses and 2 penalties, but that's just me.  That puts the focus on what's really at the core of the faction rather than side maybe-fitting bonuses.  It's also much easier to balance for playtest.  A good example might be Zak's -PROBE, I felt that one was a stretch.  And Miriam's -PLANET.  Even Gaians -MORALE was a stretch to me considering how much of their quotes are about their war with the Spartans.  Depends what source you're using I guess - the written backstory, ingame quotes, or some combination of that and what is 'logical' for a faction of their ideology.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 03, 2014, 06:18:26 am
When I was making my own factions, I looked at the originals and I said to myself;

What would these societies actually be like to live in? To truly understand a nation or a faction you must have some idea of the quality of life and type of life lived in it to judge and understand.

The Hive is a disciplined society, one of regimented schedule and work, with collective workplaces that are supervised to keep a rather quiet, professional environment. I could very well imagine that the typical Hive citizen just likes to sit and relax when he or she comes home to their assigned quarters and rest, maybe patch into a calming radio program chairman Yang has setup of focused mind and meditation programs to soothe the nerves of his workers. A sort of en masse yoga program or tai chi, via hologram studio's etc. His overall society is one about not over stimulated propaganda, but carefully controlled media and selective messages to help regulate his citizens emotions and thoughts. He creates a highly disciplined society out of strict social structure and values, as well as corporal punishment; but his citizens themselves are fairly obedient because of this. Not very free thinking per say, but very obedient and certainly not stupid. A Hive citizen would be fairly skilled in their respective line of work.

As for Miriam, I imagine her society to be like a very orthodox religious community, and I use the word orthodox in the sense they are very traditional, have established social values and practices and things expected of them. They probably have their fair share of judgemental WASPS and equivalents and such in their social ladder, and they may very well have frugal, very dogmatic priesthoods who are a sort of "no fun allowed, no dancing because it is devilwork, etc" type of attitude. I could very well imagine education to take a very benevolent sort of mask with subliminal messages of Christian militantism and obedience underneath it all. As for the citizens they probably go home to modestly comfortable homes, not extravagant by any means but not so clinically managed such as the Hives, and I like to think of Salem as it was in the Puritan days for equivalent religious social structuring in terms of how people live.

I also think research isn't totally shunned, these aren't 16th century puritans, but it is definitely questioned a lot on its ethics. I could very well imagine people discussing the ethics of certain sciences in their churches and social clubs in this very Protestant styled society.

As for Zhakarov, I literally imagine his society like a University on a grand scale with the environments of research laboratories. Social life would be composed of people listening in on lectures of new profound discoveries or philosophers and theorists with a level of security befitting of such public institutions; there would probably be some surveillance in important establishments but not in an totalitarian manner. 

Morgan I imagine to be very Corporate like with a stark mixture of industrial plants and operations with grimy foremen and such to cubicled offices and established social hierarchies, all of which in the spare time citizens spend at lavish dinner parties trying to impress their co-workers and bosses. It is also a society of deep disparity I could imagine and there wouldn't be too much security except at the workplace, and people would have to rely on their own coffers for healthcare. Meaning its a bit of a dog eat dog corporate ladder.

Now for me the society I seriously wonder how it functions would be  ;roze;,  ;marr; and  ;caretake; or  ;aki; to some extents. I could kind of guess but I don't know, for Roze all I can think of is Bladerunner or something similar where her faction is actually more of an underground movement and underworld of its own. And as for the other two I just question how much authority and other such things is implemented in those societies, I know Marr is a despotic king more or less in presumably a warrior society but what of H'mnee? Or how their societies are actually are?

Gaians I kind of have an idea of already, same as Spartans. And both were somewhat mentioned by others, and same goes as Lal's and I would know how  ;domai;'s society would work as I lived in a Socialist regime, albiet not as politically free.

 ;cha; would be a cult, and that alone implies enough I think. I've seen enough cults and sects to know how they work.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Nexii on May 03, 2014, 11:02:26 pm
Nice writeup Jarl.  *Almost* makes Hive life sound great :P.  I can see how +IND fits Hive as they work hard for the collective group.  Likely long hours like many Southeast Asian economies tend to currently. +GROWTH doesn't seem to really fit them however.  I have to feel it was sort of given just because they had Democracy aversion.  Not sure that Network Nodes really fit Yang, they're more of a closed society.

Makes me wonder how a poll of "what faction would you join" would go.  I think of all the factions Lal was portrayed the most favorably.  But I do wonder, what would be the downsides of his society.  I personally wouldn't choose Hive or Believers but there had to be something appealing about their side.  But to play devil's advocate, I think it would be difficult to defect from a faction in the early years, where they are spread out and the anoxic environment on top of this.  Two or three generations before the factions meet up again would more ferment their views. 

As noted is all the factions see the value in research, even Miriam.  I'm less convinced it's research knowledge that really drives Yang's followers though.  More focus on virtues such as order, security, loyalty would be valued.  Which on Chiron would be fairly appealing - it's a harsh environment.  Hive would see other factions as either undisciplined (aside from Spartan, Believers).  In the case of Spartans, they would be too individualist (IMO, +POLICE does not really fit their liberty doctrines), and for Believers, putting God above Man would hard to reconcile.  Yang can take Fundamentalist though, but I'd imagine that's more along the lines of N.Korea where Yang himself would be worshipped as God by his followers.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 04, 2014, 01:39:26 am
To me Lal's society would be one that's fairly liberal, but I could very well see a sort of clique forming of elitist intellectuals who harp down on more average folk with over bureaucratic regulations and safety procedures that just bog down efficiency. Bleeding hearts who don't have much working experience so to say;

of course his society would be fairly free, freedom of expression would be an utmost and political freedom would be up there as well... but I think it'd also have lots of issues that modern liberal democracies face exemplified. You'll probably have welfare state bitterness; and the fact its based off the UN, the government may be fairly inactive in enforcement so I can see crime actually being a problem.

Peacekeeper society would probably be an alright place to live in, but I can't see it being completely safe either. Combine the influx of refugee's and a strained system that's under the weight of bureaucracy and support programs it might not function very well. Crime enforcement I am thinking might be an issue, especially in refugee camps or in outskirt area's.

The difference between a true socialist state and a liberal democracy is that the economy, and socio-economic conditions to that regard, are fairly well controlled by a communal mindset and government. The Peacekeepers however are more of just a bureaucracy that would be clogged by the lack of control of the economy and thus, as any democracy that allows capitalism, especially a highly liberal one, would suffer inefficiencies and vote buying/party shareholding.


Plus; I see the Peacekeepers having similar problems to the EU when it comes to economics, the bureaucratic nature of its political organization combined with a UN Mindset will have a fair bit of issues trying to eliminate regional disparities and correctly averaging resources, which isn't as effectively done due to the layers of red tape such a specific bureaucracy would have.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Nexii on May 04, 2014, 02:56:59 am
Yea, though I think a Democracy has less economic inefficiencies (corruption) than Police State or Fundamentalism.  Nonetheless I do agree, there would be policing issues.  This is why I mod -POLICE to Democratic, I think that would be a bigger issue than military support.  Because Democracy is all about human rights, which means you can't just put down riots with force.  I'm not sure if Lal would necessarily be capitalist economy.  I think his agenda is just Democracy, and rather neutral on economy.  If anything I saw him more tending to Planned, over Free Market / Capitalist.  That would more account for the inherent economic inefficiencies & bureaucracy.  I suppose that elitist clique would be represented by the 1/4 Talents, who feel good about helping the poorer refuges. 

Gaian society might be one of the more interesting ones.  I found their nature rather odd in the game: pacifist yet always fighting with the Spartans.  I suppose pacifist tendencies don't always imply pacifist behavior, if pushed ;)

Aki, well your guess is as good as mine.  When I think "Cybernetic hivemind", the evil Borg more come to mind.  Yet they're depicted as pacifist / technology research focused - so maybe something like if "Seven of Nine" had her own faction. I think the SMAX 5 are a lot more difficult since less flavor is given.  I would think somewhat similar to Zakharov, although more communication and research might be done remotely rather than at university-like settings.  I picture their architecture as being very functional - as much as the Hive's.  Likely much more technology abound, but with very little effort spent on art, music, and the like (right brain as they put it).  I felt the Conciousness should perhaps get -SUPPORT (for all the infrastructure required), or -MORALE (since pacifist).  -GROWTH is probably the most fitting.  -INDUSTRY might fit also due to their extreme focus on the theoretical over the practical.  I suppose 'The Algorithm' would influence a lot of their day to day thoughts and activities.  Hard to say if Aki would be the one guiding that (Police State?), or if its more out of her control (Democracy?).  Since they are all possessed somehow, I would assume that there's a technological process involved to induct new CyCon members.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Impaler on May 04, 2014, 03:21:32 am
I've always thought it a bit odd that Believer society seems to be so blatantly modeled on American Evangelical Protestantism despite the numerous references to new holy texts, aka 'Conclave Bible' and the knowledge that the Unity crew consists of an eclectic mix of international crew members of a wide set of religious backgrounds.

If you've read the SMAC back-story you know that Miriam is really the most 'accidental' faction leader, she ran away from joining Zhakarov's landing craft (lots of sexual tension their) and stumbled into another craft that was damaged and leaderless and manages to be it's savior in a sense.  Other factions were largely self-selective in their personnel, but Miriam just got a random cross-section of all of Earth, the fact that they are molded into a religious society seems to have been done entirely on Miriam's personal charisma and the bond created by her rescue of them.

Given the mixed background I always imagined 'Conclavism' to be some kind of Bahai like fusion of multiple religions with the Cristian elements perhaps being most prominent.  Alternatively it might be like Mormonism in that Miriam has a series of 'Revelations' which are recorded in the frequently mentioned Conclave Bible.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 04, 2014, 03:46:09 am
-Or sixty years in the future had seen religious developments...
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 04, 2014, 03:48:42 am
Gaians I see more as attuned environmentalists with a rather euphoria driven society of tolerance and acceptance, it sounds like they are hippies, and they are amongst themselves- but when it comes to defending their communities and environments they actually get fairly nasty I'd think. They probably have a very "Guardian" like mentality, like gardenkeepers or something similar who maintain their environment and that of Planet's so they can sustain themselves, and when their sustainability is threatened they gear up and go to war.

In honesty, I actually don't think the Spartans and Gaians are truly THAT different when it comes to their mindset on survival; the key difference is their opinion on planet, the former more about conquering it and the other adapting, both survivalist mindsets in their own right.

And they both are actually warlike come to think of it, but the former prefers military precision, tactic and jackboot over naturalizing, using your environment as a tool/weapon and adapting to your surroundings.

Two starkly similar ideals really, just with FAR different approaches.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Dio on May 04, 2014, 04:33:31 am
I also think that Zakharov's and Morgan's factions would have issues with drones because they would tend to create either a elitist top group of researchers or a huge disparity between the rich and poor of the factions.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Nexii on May 04, 2014, 05:03:11 am
Drones penalty probably fits Morgan better than Zak, IMO.  But Zak would be a close second.  It's trickier to think of good penalties for Zak.  Even negative probe is kind of a stretch, though it works.  They're more about discovering knowledge than stealing it I guess...
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Impaler on May 05, 2014, 03:05:44 am
Well Probe rating makes Zak leak technology like a sieve, which is appropriate (academics don't like to keep secrets) and it's kind of a critical Achilles heel if the University is in the tech lead, you need to be able to tech steal back to parity (which is why the HSA was so unbalanced in it's original form as it could single-handedly remove the Universities one weakness).

I always found the whole notion that University Drone penalty comes from the 'unethical' or 'reckless' nature of Zak's research it be quite silly, the average man on the street simply dose not get his heckles up about stuff happening in a laboratory.  Particularly when your at a state of war with other factions and hostile native life forms and that research is all that stands between you and certain death.  It's crazy to imagine that people are 'Droning out' over issues like Stem-cells and some of the ludite concerns that exist in our day and age.

Now what WOULD makes sense is if the University as a culture has a big underclass of people who couldn't make the Cut intellectually to be in the privileged tenured academic ruling elite.  The University strikes me as a society with would largely throw anyone with less then equivalent of a college education to the wolves and that seems to be a more logical source of drones to me.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Nexii on May 05, 2014, 05:20:13 am
I took it that Zak would be performing unethical experiments on humans - most likely on the underclass you mentioned.  Possibly on the native life as well.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 05, 2014, 05:26:30 am
Yeah, its not so much of those unethical experiments, rather that  ;zak; performs it on a caste of drones who CANNOT progress no matter what. Morgan speaks indirectly of the University when he says,

"You ivory tower intellectuals must not lose touch with the world of industrial growth and hard currency. It is all very well and good to pursue these high-minded scientific theories, but research grants are expensive. You must justify your existence by providing not only knowledge but concrete and profitable applications as well."

Of course he was talking more of economic justification of scientists, but the thing is he calls them Ivory tower intellectuals.

This might be indirect throw at the University and its caste system, and I could very well imagine there is a whole class of people, proletariat who serve as downtrodden, disrespected manual laborers who get very little respect or care and are actively experimented on by the University. And this makes sense, because why would any sensible faction sacrifice its best and brightest in unstable experiments when it has a pool of (unwilling) victims- I mean volunteers to draw from?

That's what I think when I think of Zhakarov's drone issues. And historically, I think of Nazi Super science for equivalent comparisons...


Plus on another note, one of the Free Drone's drawbacks, negative research, is they don't like "Blue Sky Research."

A whole bit of Ludditism could be imprinted on the Free Drone movement because of the University and other faction's total disregard of the drone's health and safety.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Sigma on May 05, 2014, 07:49:00 pm
I've always thought it a bit odd that Believer society seems to be so blatantly modeled on American Evangelical Protestantism despite the numerous references to new holy texts, aka 'Conclave Bible' and the knowledge that the Unity crew consists of an eclectic mix of international crew members of a wide set of religious backgrounds.

If you've read the SMAC back-story you know that Miriam is really the most 'accidental' faction leader, she ran away from joining Zhakarov's landing craft (lots of sexual tension their) and stumbled into another craft that was damaged and leaderless and manages to be it's savior in a sense.  Other factions were largely self-selective in their personnel, but Miriam just got a random cross-section of all of Earth, the fact that they are molded into a religious society seems to have been done entirely on Miriam's personal charisma and the bond created by her rescue of them.

Given the mixed background I always imagined 'Conclavism' to be some kind of Bahai like fusion of multiple religions with the Cristian elements perhaps being most prominent.  Alternatively it might be like Mormonism in that Miriam has a series of 'Revelations' which are recorded in the frequently mentioned Conclave Bible.
The Conclave Bible doesn't seem to have anything particularly new in it. The quotes in the Datalinks read like excerpts from the King James Version with fewer archaism, which makes sense for a group rooted in American Evangelical Baptist theology. Miriam stands out from the other factions because her characterization feels a lot more reactionary than the other faction leaders. She was very clearly written as a charactacture and a criticism of figures like Jerry Falwell and other members of the Moral Majority that came down hard on video games in the 90s, which is when SMAC was being developed. She comes off as being profoundly unsympathetic because Firaxis no doubt had little sympathy for that particular ideology.

On the one hand it would feel more natural for a Fundamentalist group in the future to reflect a more diverse religious background, but on the other hand that threatens to water down their identity. In that way the Believers make sense-- every other faction believes in their ideology to the extent that they are willing to commit violence to defend it, so making the Believers a warm and welcoming Universalist church would make them appear weak in comparison to the other factions. The Believers are dogmatic and fanatical, but so are the other factions. They are just more obvious about it.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: KingCrimson on May 06, 2014, 10:38:56 pm
This is something I like to think about a lot, because it's the sort of thing that really draws me into the game's world.

First, I think the important thing to address is that, as others have pointed out, all aspects of society still exist in every faction. Everyone has scientists, everyone has engineers, everyone has entrepreneurs, everyone has ecologists, and spies, and soldiers, and entertainers, etc. This is important because it's easy to define a faction by their strengths, but in reality (er, such as it is) there are a vast plethora of scientists who aren't with the University, businesspeople who aren't Morganites, religious people who aren't a part of the Believers, and so on. So we don't want to have a "Hive has no economists, Believers have no researchers, Peacekeepers have no soldiers" type of mentality.


I've always felt that the way the Believers are written clashes a bit with the way the Believers are played. Based on tech, project and facility blurbs, Miriam sounds IMHO more like a religious version of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park than anything else - not a hyper-militant Luddite, but rather the skeptic saying "Instead of wondering if it can be done, maybe we should be asking whether it should be done." Based on some of her quotes, she seems to be fairly well-versed in science herself. Once things like the Dream Twister, Thought Control, and Punishment Spheres start showing up, it actually becomes far easier for me to empathize with her. At first it's easy to dismiss her rantings as technophobic nonsense, but once you've unleashed genetic warfare against a base, then had servile alien life forms obliterate every last trace of humanity there, you begin to wonder if maybe she had a point.

Of course, the way she's played is completely different - incredibly militant and deeply opposed to any sort of scientific progress. Perhaps that's reflective of gameplay and story segregation - or perhaps it's reflective of her rhetoric being a smokescreen to conceal her true ambitions. SMAC has this fantastic tension where you're never really sure if the leaders see their ideology as an end itself, or simply as the optimal means to achieving some other goal.


I don't think that extra research fits Yang. To me, the things that would make the Hive skilled researchers are also the things that would make them poor ones - while they are efficient and disciplined, they are also highly discouraged from thinking "outside the box." I think the two would cancel each other out.


The issue of Zak's drones is an interesting question, because IMHO the game is a bit inconsistent about the nature of drones, as well. Are they discontents? Lower-class workers? A specific caste? Depending on the answer there, we're going to end up with a different picture of where his extra drones come from, I think.


To me, the most interesting question is how much interaction there is between factions on a small scale level. Do the Morganites have shops and warehouses in other factions? Do University command centres use Spartan theory as the basis for their military training? Do the Believers have churches and/or missionaries scattered throughout Chiron? Do businesses around the planet outsource manufacturing to Hive industrial complexes? I would imagine that the Peacekeepers would be particularly tumultuous, as they seem like the type of faction who wouldn't be too insistent that immigrants, refugees, or conquered people assimilate. My guess would be that some Peacekeeper bases would be a sort of patchwork quilt of different factions - across the street from a Believing church, a collection of University exchange students have a quick dinner in a Hive-style feeding bay, while debating the merits and shortcomings of Gaian and Morganite environmental policies. That sort of thing.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 06, 2014, 11:03:11 pm
Valid points, though one thing to keep in mind is that these factions are ideologies taken to the extreme; and thus the dogma that goes with it. Morgan does have his enterprise spread about across the factions, but that does not mean citizens interchange very often, especially considering that world trade and travel is NOT established on Chiron, and the close knit control the factions have on their followers and the companion fanaticism for the ideal makes it very unlikely such metropolitan societies exist, at least for most of the game. Of course; that may change- but built up cultural values will take their precedence and do in our world as well. An extreme ideal in isolation builds up a mentality and character in people over time, and this is evident in history. And when those ideals collide, the result is often very messy. The Believers to me are so hostile not because their actual ideal is such a theocratic killing of science, but rather they are simply fighting for their faction survival, and part of their anti-science rhetoric comes from that fear. Miriam is an intelligent woman, but she is also one who uses charm as much as she does fear. And she has an image to uphold to her enemies- a fearful tide of theocratic punishment that she will damn her foes with. And to her own followers, a healthy skeptic and questioner of science, to use faith as a means of living your life in good safety and direction.

Of course things cross over here and there.

As for question of drones; drones are a mixture of lower class people, not merely just lower class labourers but labourer's who work the least skilled jobs. And sometimes drone's even have deliberate alterations to their mental capacity, and are often the victims of experiments and such too. See them as a caste of human beings who are not as valued by the rest of society. The Free Drones is a bit of a Proletarian Union movement in a sense in that it wants the drones, the truly disadvantaged case of society to rise up and form their own society. Of course being drones and the social stigma's associated they have problems in that society too. One of them is fear of researchers and an imbedded ludditism to themselves due to that fear.

Its a bit different then my Crimson Comrade's who were actually a full on Marxist revolution which took ALL the Proletarian as a whole, and other classes of society too; to rebel against Usurper and their pawn's despotic rule. And in the lore of my custom factions the Crimson Comrade's sort of absorbed the Free Drones once the Usurper threat came along because alone the drones got demolished.

I considered lot of these questions when making my custom factions... Crimson, you might want to take a look at those. Here is link:

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3751.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3751.0)
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Yitzi on May 07, 2014, 12:29:40 am
The Free Drones is a bit of a Proletarian Union movement

More than a bit; the Free Drones essentially represent the essence of Marxism, even though they've dropped many of the peripheral details.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Impaler on May 07, 2014, 03:37:44 am
Given how intellectual real Marxism is as a philosophy I find it hard to believe that a bunch of essentially Luddite Drones would actually embrace it.  Far more likely would be a less structured form of Socialism, possibly even Anarcho-Syndicalism.  I never got deeply into any of the SMACX factions but the Free Drones never struck me as true Marxists.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 07, 2014, 04:20:25 am
And they aren't, the Free Drones are Union Socialists; not full on Marxists. I don't know their stance on private property and the like as its not explicitly stated but the vibe I got from them is that they are aspiring industrialists with strong work ethic, and worker protection laws. They have lots of social services and the like to serve the population and promote industrial educations and so forth, but they didn't come off to me as total re-distributive and equalizers- certainly egalitarian and focused on sharing wealth to extents sure, but not full on "To each their own needs to each their own ability." Otherwise they'd be embracing of technological process as well.

They aren't too far off from a Marxist ideal, but to state they are Marxists is mistake I think. To me they seem to take a little bit of Trotskyism and mash it with Union/Labour socialism- they aren't having complete industrial revolutions as you are essentially liberating people from societies that come from more of frontier colonial civilization then established, industrial capitalism. Not to say that Communism can't erupt from other forms of civilization then that, and its why my Crimson Comrade's aren't full on Marxists either, even though they do closely follow many of its tenets.

I don't think they are about equalization and killing the wealth gap either, they are more about egalitarian worker reform and protectionism then a fully equal society.

Because I could easily see the Drones, if they managed to uphold such a system, easily going for Henry Ford style capitalism over state socialism. (of course they prefer Union socialism because Henry Ford Capitalism only lasts so long as that particular CEO does.) They are just about emancipation of the drones, not leveling the playing field in my eyes.

Edit: And thats why I felt I needed to make Crimson Comrades way back; as I felt there truly lacked a true Socialist/Communist revolution/faction in the Centauri universe, when the conditions of it could very well back one.

Of course, that is not to say that the Drones and Comrade's wouldn't get along. In my lore I wrote for my custom factions the drones were actually absorbed as a movement into the Crimson revolution, because unlike Earth, the socialists on Chiron realized the mistakes of the past and realized in order for their ideal to survive they must band together despite their differences to survive outside threats. The Nazi regime came into power because the Communists and Democratic Socialists had a rift in their relationship and this allowed Hitler and his Nazi party to consolidate their political power. That mistake was not made when the Usurpers came with their pawns and annihilated most of the Human factions into ruin. 
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Yitzi on May 07, 2014, 02:39:08 pm
Given how intellectual real Marxism is as a philosophy I find it hard to believe that a bunch of essentially Luddite Drones would actually embrace it.  Far more likely would be a less structured form of Socialism, possibly even Anarcho-Syndicalism.  I never got deeply into any of the SMACX factions but the Free Drones never struck me as true Marxists.

I may be misunderstanding things, but as I understand it, Marx's idea, past the short "dictatorship of the proletariat" (which is definitely one of the peripherals that the Drones ditched), is actually fairly unstructured, with people doing whatever holds their interest.

And they aren't, the Free Drones are Union Socialists; not full on Marxists. I don't know their stance on private property and the like as its not explicitly stated

I don't really see Marx's stance on private property as the essence of his philosophy; it's one of the more important peripherals, and one on which the Drones are definitely ambiguous, but not the essence.

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They aren't too far off from a Marxist ideal, but to state they are Marxists is mistake I think. To me they seem to take a little bit of Trotskyism

I think Trotsky was probably closer to Marx than even Lenin; he was certainly closer than Stalin.

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Edit: And thats why I felt I needed to make Crimson Comrades way back; as I felt there truly lacked a true Socialist/Communist revolution/faction in the Centauri universe, when the conditions of it could very well back one.

The Crimson Comrades seem to me to be more Leninist than Marxist.  They're about organized revolution, not spontaneous proletarian uprisings leading to a Eudaimonic end goal.  So yes, they are more "socialist/communist revolution" than the Drones, but less Marxist.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 07, 2014, 05:34:27 pm
I may be misunderstanding things, but as I understand it, Marx's idea, past the short "dictatorship of the proletariat" (which is definitely one of the peripherals that the Drones ditched), is actually fairly unstructured, with people doing whatever holds their interest.

Marx stated that, while the state would wither, people would still be collective as they work for the common good. He was heavily influenced by Rousseau and the Hegelian, and as a result Marx explicitly stated that yes, while people will pursue their interests, they will still work towards the common goals of the greater good and collective as the worker, and this is how he more or less states it, will know what people need and know the troubles and tribulations of poverty because he himself lived through it, and will help others along in the process.

So while puritan Marxist Communism has a fair degree of personal liberty, the general will of the people and good of the community is still a very high precedent thing.

I don't really see Marx's stance on private property as the essence of his philosophy; it's one of the more important peripherals, and one on which the Drones are definitely ambiguous, but not the essence.

Marx was HIGHLY against Private Property because, again he says private property is what corrupts the individual and turns him greedy, more or less. He believed that property shared in common will be far more beneficial and it'll break the tragic cycle of the Proletariat being exploited by the Burgiouse and capitalist classes. Private property must be eliminated for true equality to occur. 

I think Trotsky was probably closer to Marx than even Lenin; he was certainly closer than Stalin.

Stalin was an autocrat, Trotsky was an elitist and Lenin was a populist. They all have their merits and their beliefs, and being close to Marx does not necessarily deem you closer to Communist ideal. What deems you closer to Communist ideal is realizing the end goal of the revolution; and while Trotsky had a fairly good understanding that if Communism was to succeed there was need for genuine global support, and proper uprising- he had problems realizing this and he had a somewhat elitist air to him that put off a fair amount of Communists. Lenin made sure he did not appear as elitist by making him seem more aspiring and relatable, and while Lenin had his own glory cult he was far more stable in his operation then Trotsky. Lenin realized that you had to have capitalism, even in small degree's, before you could progress to communism. Trotsky ignored this.

The Crimson Comrades seem to me to be more Leninist than Marxist.  They're about organized revolution, not spontaneous proletarian uprisings leading to a Eudaimonic end goal.  So yes, they are more "socialist/communist revolution" than the Drones, but less Marxist.

The Crimson Comrades ARE organized themselves, but they also encourage and support Proletarian rebellion elsewhere and are active revolutionaries themselves. They empower populaces to revolt, through media, exposure of corruption, smuggling arms, etc. And the Crimson Comrades do not have outright propaganda for state figures and leaders, or at least, condoned. It still exists but the thing is, Vazheli and other individuals within the Confederacy do not actively make campaigns of glorifying themselves, and he himself amongst the other heroes the populace looks to as role models do not live glamorous lives. Vazheli lives fairly frugally himself and lives in a rather modest housing unit; almost a bit lower quality then that of his fellow faction members, and the only real sort of propaganda esque operations that go on is when there is active citizens and such that perform great feats. This isn't to glorify them but rather to empower the other citizens and give them motivation, and its still keeping to the tradition of Marxism fairly well:

You have a society that is for the Proletariat, the majority working classes, if not fully Proletarian in itself (Proletarian does not mean merely factory or farm workers mind- it means anyone who sells their labour for a living.) and supports their livelihoods and endeavors, a rather communal mindset coupled with an albeit violent, but egalitarian world view of spreading their revolution and encompassing the rest of the world in their egalitarian regime. The leaders, the council of this is DEMOCRATICALLY elected in a fairly representative, confederal/regional manner meaning that each region is fairly well represented; and the lack of Capitalist enterprise ensures that votes are not bought out/shareholded. I could go into detail how the whole system works but I'd just be ranting about a fictional Centauri faction, which is not the point of the response.

(I enjoy this mind, don't think I am offended  ;) )

The Peripherals do matter. Small details can change how an entire society runs; that's why you always read the small print in contracts and other papers because on single line or sentence can determine how a whole operation conducts itself.
Many people have been fooled and enslaved because they didn't notice the peripherals/didn't care about them.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Yitzi on May 07, 2014, 08:05:10 pm
Marx stated that, while the state would wither, people would still be collective as they work for the common good. He was heavily influenced by Rousseau and the Hegelian, and as a result Marx explicitly stated that yes, while people will pursue their interests, they will still work towards the common goals of the greater good and collective as the worker, and this is how he more or less states it, will know what people need and know the troubles and tribulations of poverty because he himself lived through it, and will help others along in the process.

Sounds like something a Eudaimonic society would probably include.

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Marx was HIGHLY against Private Property because, again he says private property is what corrupts the individual and turns him greedy, more or less. He believed that property shared in common will be far more beneficial and it'll break the tragic cycle of the Proletariat being exploited by the Burgiouse and capitalist classes. Private property must be eliminated for true equality to occur. 

He does; the question is whether that's part of the essence of his position.  I think it's, at the very least, farther from the essence of his position than those things that the Drones have and the Comrades do not (e.g. an endgoal that's quite high in freedom.)

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Stalin was an autocrat, Trotsky was an elitist and Lenin was a populist. They all have their merits and their beliefs, and being close to Marx does not necessarily deem you closer to Communist ideal.

True; the Comrades are certainly closer to the Communist ideal than the Drones are.  The question is whether they're more or less Marxist.

The Crimson Comrades ARE organized themselves, but they also encourage and support Proletarian rebellion elsewhere and are active revolutionaries themselves. They empower populaces to revolt, through media, exposure of corruption, smuggling arms, etc. And the Crimson Comrades do not have outright propaganda for state figures and leaders, or at least, condoned. It still exists but the thing is, Vazheli and other individuals within the Confederacy do not actively make campaigns of glorifying themselves, and he himself amongst the other heroes the populace looks to as role models do not live glamorous lives. Vazheli lives fairly frugally himself and lives in a rather modest housing unit; almost a bit lower quality then that of his fellow faction members, and the only real sort of propaganda esque operations that go on is when there is active citizens and such that perform great feats. This isn't to glorify them but rather to empower the other citizens and give them motivation, and its still keeping to the tradition of Marxism fairly well:

You have a society that is for the Proletariat, the majority working classes, if not fully Proletarian in itself (Proletarian does not mean merely factory or farm workers mind- it means anyone who sells their labour for a living.) and supports their livelihoods and endeavors, a rather communal mindset coupled with an albeit violent, but egalitarian world view of spreading their revolution and encompassing the rest of the world in their egalitarian regime. The leaders, the council of this is DEMOCRATICALLY elected in a fairly representative, confederal/regional manner meaning that each region is fairly well represented; and the lack of Capitalist enterprise ensures that votes are not bought out/shareholded. I could go into detail how the whole system works but I'd just be ranting about a fictional Centauri faction, which is not the point of the response.

[/quote]

They don't have the "endgame" feel I'd expect from true Marxism, though.

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The Peripherals do matter.

They definitely matter; they do not, however, play as large a role in determining closeness to an ideal.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 07, 2014, 08:46:30 pm
Well considering the Comrades are the revolutionary phase, they will act as such. You cannot go to the end goal of Communism without doing the proper steps, its like expecting a nation to go to the moon out of thin air without having the industrial capacity to support a space program, the education required, the wealth required or even having the space program to begin with. It's comparable to that.


The Comrade's end goal is indeed Communism in its end goal; because take a look at their preferred policy: Eudaimonia. They get immunities to the drawbacks of planned, but it isn't their stated ideal. As for who is more Marxist, its a sort of moot point when it comes to the Comrades or the Drone's because BOTH are their own branch of Socialism, the Crimson Comrades are revolutionary confederalist/communalist communists and the Free Drones are Union inspired socialist egalitarians.

Neither are true Marxists, and they shouldn't be. Marx wrote the book with Friedrich Engels, but that does not mean the pure format of his ideal is what works. Do Christians worship the original cult of Jesus Christ? I think not. They more rely on the disciples interpretations, and depending on the slant/sect, you might rely on Peter's (Catholic) or your own based on what you read (Protestant.)

Communism, while not a religion is an ideal and any ideal, including religions are dictated by how they are interpreted and practiced.

But, I am curious, what makes the Drones more Marxist then the Comrade's? What details stand out that make the former more then the other?

Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Yitzi on May 07, 2014, 09:15:29 pm
Well considering the Comrades are the revolutionary phase, they will act as such. You cannot go to the end goal of Communism without doing the proper steps, its like expecting a nation to go to the moon out of thin air without having the industrial capacity to support a space program, the education required, the wealth required or even having the space program to begin with. It's comparable to that.


The Comrade's end goal is indeed Communism in its end goal; because take a look at their preferred policy: Eudaimonia. They get immunities to the drawbacks of planned, but it isn't their stated ideal. As for who is more Marxist, its a sort of moot point when it comes to the Comrades or the Drone's because BOTH are their own branch of Socialism, the Crimson Comrades are revolutionary confederalist/communalist communists and the Free Drones are Union inspired socialist egalitarians.

Neither are true Marxists, and they shouldn't be. Marx wrote the book with Friedrich Engels, but that does not mean the pure format of his ideal is what works. Do Christians worship the original cult of Jesus Christ? I think not. They more rely on the disciples interpretations, and depending on the slant/sect, you might rely on Peter's (Catholic) or your own based on what you read (Protestant.)

Communism, while not a religion is an ideal and any ideal, including religions are dictated by how they are interpreted and practiced.

But, I am curious, what makes the Drones more Marxist then the Comrade's? What details stand out that make the former more then the other?

Ah, I missed that their preferred ideology is also Eudaimonic.  Ok, so I sit corrected; they are more Marxist than the Drones, though the Drones are still far more Marxist than the Hive (which is the most Stalinist faction.)
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: JarlWolf on May 08, 2014, 12:53:55 am
The hive to be is not communist or socialist in the slightest. They seem more fascist as a matter of fact;

However I'd define their ideology as Legalism, or based off of Chinese Legalism.

They focus more on law, order and security then equity, benevolence and citizen care; they are more about collective obedience, discipline and adherence to the law then any sort of revolutionary communist ideal.

Stalin may have been autocratic; but his reforms WERE aimed to the benefit of the citizens and the national industry; its just his methods were fairly brutal. Yang is all about promoting security and control rather so he has a stable society. Stalin was all about mass industrialization and taking control so he can increase the industrial capacity of the Soviet Union.

If that meant taking land from the Kulaks, (kulak meaning fist in Russian, and for good reason they were called this,) who were unpopular landowners who bullied serfs and peasants, then so be it. He'll use this scapegoat to deter any criticisms against his policies while also industrializing entire nation.

I don't approve of Stalin and his brutality but the man wasn't stupid. And he was one of the reasons the Great Patriotic war was not lost to the Axis. Otherwise 90% of my country would've been butchered or enslaved by a fascist regime.

Of course; Yang is on a completely different premise. And he has reasons to be just as ruthless, if not more so, with his followers given that a secure, monitored society is a lot more stable in such an environment as Chiron.
Title: Re: Alternate views on certain aspects of the original seven factions
Post by: Impaler on May 08, 2014, 02:28:53 am
Yang might also have been justifiably motivated by the break-down of social order that occurred on Earth, a break-down so catastrophic that it literally reached across the light-years to seed the crisis that broke up the Unity Crew.  Like Deidre he is trying to prevent a repeat of the 'tragedy of Earth' as he sees it.

As far a fascist though, while their are some elements of that I always felt the Spartans were supposed to be the fascist allegory, they are after all named after the ORIGINAL fascist society. 

In a broader sense though ALL the factions are run by a single cult like leader and are trying to concur each other, the very nature of a CIV or 4X game kind of makes you the player a fascist leader.

I find the Chinese legalism strikes very close to the mark for the Hive, it's just never called so by name in any of the Hive flavoring text in the game, perhaps because western audience are just not familiar enough with legalism for the developers to have felt it could be called out by name. 

I think Yang tends to be mislabeled as a Marxist/Communist because of the Hives ECONOMY penalty which most folks immediately interpret as a central planning penalty (even though their is a SE setting that clearly encompasses that practice meaning no faction is automatically using central planning).  Also Yang being Chinese tends to strongly bias us to paint him with a Maoist brush.  I think Yang would have been more interesting as a character if his nationality had been different, maybe Korean or Laotian, a reasonable cultural background for legalism but not one which would be clouding our interpretations.

One of the key principles of legalism is a paternalistic disdain for the masses, a belief they are inherently foolish and unable to govern themselves and Yang certainly ascribes to that belief, but he dose have some hints of Confucian belief in the potential for self-improvement, 'overcoming crass demands of flesh and bone' etc.
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