Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Bug/Patch Discussion => Topic started by: ete on April 25, 2014, 12:55:23 pm

Title: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 12:55:23 pm
For the SMAC in SMAX project we need a full and detailed list of what changed between the versions so we know what needs to be undone. These will be listed in this thread, please help by linking to useful sources of changes and by posting things that have been missed.

Unsorted changes

Non-coding changes
Datalinks changes
Tech tree changes
Extra weapons, abilities and armor
Extra default units
-Most native life can be turned into MW or IoD clones trivially
-Fungal towers could be tricky, but making them missiles may work fine. Needs testing.
-Battle ogres maybe best disabled by editing pod events
Replace the expansion map with the original map (i.e., remove or disable the U.N.S. Unity Wreckage, Fossil Field Ridge)
Graphics for sea mines (?)

Coding changes
Opening video
-Replace expansion opening video with original opening video
Extra factions need removing
-Replace expansion main screen (i.e., logo) and menu (i.e., green buttons) with original expansion main screen and menu (i.e., blue buttons)
-Disable the expansion faction selection menu (i.e., the middle menu of the three)
Pod pop events
-Cloning
-Battle Ogres
Landmarks to optional
-Fossil Ridge, Unity Wreckage

Acceptable changes
Changes between versions which SMACers are okay with (kyrub you can veto these, just let me know)
Freeing captured faction leaders probe op
New landmarks (?)
-Borehole Cluster, the Manifold Nexus,
Hotseat/PBEM support

Credit to diessa for writing up some project specifications (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12kd7Dl-tFmMOSWJaVrW6-8ZHQmlhfW7dmbXiRS4OKXo/edit), part of which I used in this post.

I play almost entirely SMAX, so am likely to be missing some changes here. Please post differences between the games that are not here :).
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 01:54:11 pm
Cloning was added by the expansion. It and the Ogre seem to be the only supply pod events that were added. I referenced this across a couple of wiki articles, so someone who knows the code may be able to confirm.

Edit: a decision will need to be made about the Borehole Cluster and Nexus Manifold. Both were added in a patch, but they are intended to establish more of a lore base for aliens. The Manifold is an easy thing to justify removing, but the Borehole Cluster is a more interesting option; do we want a more recent alien presence (including the cluster's interlude)?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 02:14:42 pm
On the borehole cluster one could edit the description that is displayed for them.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Dio on April 25, 2014, 03:00:14 pm
What about a fungal tower that appears when you open a unity pod full of fungus? The proposed change would cause missiles to appear from the pod  ???.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 03:13:56 pm
On the borehole cluster one could edit the description that is displayed for them.

Good point about editing the interlude. I'd like to keep them. In the original specifications document, I suggested (in either this project or another one) adding more interludes to the other landmarks to add to the lore of the game and explain what the bonus is. "Ridge" or "Crater" aren't too descriptive for +1 energy and +1 minerals, respectively. Interludes can be turned off, so the additions won't even bother anyone, which is a plus.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 03:36:02 pm
I'd say keep extra interludes for a different project. Maybe the could be merged into the standard modpack later if most people agreed and they were well done, but let's keep this abut SMACifying X.

Editing the label to Borehole Cluster is simple enough and would work well. Was the Manifold Nexus in the later SMAC patches then? If they were both included in SMAC, I'd say just leave them in with the same names/properties as they had in SMAC.

The fungal tower thing: ideally we'd remove fungal towers entirely as part of the rollback X setting, but making a one turn "missile" with the MW special icon and psi attack/defence appear is at least pretty close. Enough for a first version to not act too crazy, you just get one extra MW when you pop a pod, and that MW vanishes after one turn. Though having a proper coded solution would be better longer term.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 04:01:37 pm
I agree that the additions are better kept for something else.

Yes, both the Borehole Cluster and Manifold Nexus were added in the SMAC patch that anticipated SMAX's release. However, we shouldn't keep them because they are part of the original. They exist to bridge the narrative gap between SMAC and SMAX. They are retcons that occurred at the end of SMAC's post-release development cycle, so they ought to be considered critically. A significant portion of this project is about removing an active progenitor presence from the game, so keeping the thing that they are coming for (i.e., the Manifold Nexus) would be problematic.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Geo on April 25, 2014, 05:08:56 pm
What about a fungal tower that appears when you open a unity pod full of fungus? The proposed change would cause missiles to appear from the pod  ???.

Do Fungal Towers pop from pods on the tile itself? AFAIK the unit popping a pod enters the tile. And if it is adjacent, then a mind worm graphic will be seen for one turn if it is linked to the proper slot in the units.pcx file.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Dio on April 25, 2014, 05:32:41 pm
What about a fungal tower that appears when you open a unity pod full of fungus? The proposed change would cause missiles to appear from the pod  ???.

Do Fungal Towers pop from pods on the tile itself? AFAIK the unit popping a pod enters the tile. And if it is adjacent, then a mind worm graphic will be seen for one turn if it is linked to the proper slot in the units.pcx file.
Fungal towers that come from a pod full of fungus will appear in a random adjacent tile to the unity pod. In addition, what about ecodamage related fungal blooms that produce fungus and fungal towers?

Things that can produce fungal towers:

Opening unity pods on land
Ecodamage related fungal blooms on land

Question: In SMAX, does the major fungal bloom catastrophe still occur after a faction finishes building the Voice of Planet secret project, but before a faction builds the Ascent to Transcendence?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Lord Avalon on April 25, 2014, 06:02:00 pm
I've got the Alien Crossfire manual. Should I just list everything it does (which would be easier than listing only what was missed above)?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 06:09:36 pm
go for it. I'll look through and add anything new.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 06:16:41 pm
This post may be of use: http://alphacentauri.us/smac-x-whats-new.html (http://alphacentauri.us/smac-x-whats-new.html)
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Lord Avalon on April 25, 2014, 06:22:47 pm
New human factions; alien factions.

New Manifestations of Planet
Native Life: Flora - Fungal Towers; Fauna - Spore Launchers, Sealurks
Unity Pods: Battle Ogres, Cloning
Landmarks: the Borehole Cluster, Unity Wreckage, the Manifold Nexus, Fossil Ridge

New Manifestations of the Colonists
(Stuff for) Units: Resonance Laser, Resonance Bolt, String Disruptor, Tectonic Payload, Fungal Payload, Resonance Armor, Pulse Armor, Soporific Gas Pods, Dissociative Wave, Marine Detachment, Fuel Nanocells, Algorithmic Enhancement

Facilities: Aquafarm, Brood Pit, Covert Ops Center, Flechette Defense System, Geosynchronous Survey Pod, Subsea Trunkline, Subspace Generator, Thermocline Transducer

Secret Projects: Cloudbase Academy, Manifold Harmonics, Nethack Terminus, Planetary Energy Grid

New Technologies: Progenitor Psych (E1), Field Modulation (C2), Adaptive Economic Systems (B3), Adaptive Doctrine (C3), Bioadaptive Resonance (C4), N-Space Compression (C8), Sentient Resonance (C9), Secrets of the Manifold (D13), String Resonance (C16)

New Probe Team Rules: Algorithmic Enhancement
New Probe Action: Freeing Captured Leaders

Alien Crossfire manual, pp. 11-25
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 07:02:59 pm
Okay, got them all :)
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 07:03:42 pm
Question: In SMAX, does the major fungal bloom catastrophe still occur after a faction finishes building the Voice of Planet secret project, but before a faction builds the Ascent to Transcendence?

I'm not sure what you mean by "major".  Fungal blooms can still happen post-VoP, and actually are twice as likely to happen, but do not contain worms once the VoP has been built.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: gwillybj on April 25, 2014, 07:18:29 pm
Question: In SMAX, does the major fungal bloom catastrophe still occur after a faction finishes building the Voice of Planet secret project, but before a faction builds the Ascent to Transcendence?

I'm not sure what you mean by "major".  Fungal blooms can still happen post-VoP, and actually are twice as likely to happen, but do not contain worms once the VoP has been built.

It's the global bloom that happens upon completion of the Voice, and it ruins all the nice, neat terraforming you've done. Yes, it still happens, but if you have the Progenitors in the game, you have to get the Voice and Transcend before they build the right number of Subspace Generators to phone home - if that happens, all humans are toast (or served on toast).
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2014, 07:19:28 pm
I'm pretty sure Progs are herbivores.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 09:30:30 pm
It's the global bloom that happens upon completion of the Voice, and it ruins all the nice, neat terraforming you've done. Yes, it still happens, but if you have the Progenitors in the game, you have to get the Voice and Transcend before they build the right number of Subspace Generators to phone home - if that happens, all humans are toast (or served on toast).

I think it's just a single bloom in SMAX; is it substantially more in SMAC?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2014, 09:33:09 pm
I only upgraded to X a little over five years ago, and I don't remember noticing a difference in the VoP bloom effects.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Geo on April 25, 2014, 10:17:49 pm

I think it's just a single bloom in SMAX; is it substantially more in SMAC?

It's a continuous map-wide fungal bloom, adding new tiles every lapsed turn.
At least if the effect isn't different in scenarios. I saw it last in action on my Mars scenario.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2014, 10:27:02 pm
That doesn't sound like anything I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 11:14:16 pm

I think it's just a single bloom in SMAX; is it substantially more in SMAC?

It's a continuous map-wide fungal bloom, adding new tiles every lapsed turn.
At least if the effect isn't different in scenarios. I saw it last in action on my Mars scenario.

I never investigated to see if that happens in SMAX too; if not, something of that sort (with moddable associated variables) is already on my to-do list, as I think it will help give that "Planet rising" feel (especially if the VoP is moved down the tech tree somewhat so that there's a nice period in there.)
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Nexii on April 26, 2014, 01:50:11 am
I always thought it was a single bloom too, on every tile that had fungus to start the game.  Would have to test this...
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Geo on April 26, 2014, 04:01:44 am
I never investigated to see if that happens in SMAX too; if not, something of that sort (with moddable associated variables) is already on my to-do list, as I think it will help give that "Planet rising" feel (especially if the VoP is moved down the tech tree somewhat so that there's a nice period in there.)

The scenario is SMACX-based.
IIRC, finishing the VoP enables the construction of the Ascend SP for every faction in the unmodded game. Never came far enough with one of your mods to see if you changed that trigger somehow?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Yitzi on April 27, 2014, 02:34:28 am
I never investigated to see if that happens in SMAX too; if not, something of that sort (with moddable associated variables) is already on my to-do list, as I think it will help give that "Planet rising" feel (especially if the VoP is moved down the tech tree somewhat so that there's a nice period in there.)

The scenario is SMACX-based.
IIRC, finishing the VoP enables the construction of the Ascend SP for every faction in the unmodded game. Never came far enough with one of your mods to see if you changed that trigger somehow?

Somewhat; now it enables it for every faction other than the Caretakers which knows the required tech.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: kyrub on April 27, 2014, 10:22:09 pm
Changes between versions which SMACers are okay with (kyrub you can veto these, just let me know)
Freeing captured faction leaders probe op (?)
New landmarks (?)
-Borehole Cluster, Unity Wreckage, the Manifold Nexus, Fossil Ridge
Hotseat/PBEM support

As I have said, my stance on "changes" is really conservative. From my experience from working patches for old games, I find it important to be able to show the new hybrid game and say: truly, you may play your old SMAC, if you wish (there is a good number of players, who want their "retro" experience.) No hidden surprise, and you may share our goods (patches/mods/experience) with the community. - For optional content, there's always room.

Landmarks: Borehold cluster and Manifold Nexus is in SMAC v.4. For me, that means that it automatically goes in our hybrid. The other two, I don't know. I really like Fossil Ridge as a landmark, but I have many doubts about Unity Wreckage from the description. Can anybody explain more? -- Do I want to know where other factions are? Nah, that's game changer, we old gamers like our slow uncovering of the shrowd.  And what is Mining Laser, please? Engine Core, huh? (And if we don't admit Unity wreckage, then we should make Fossil Ridge optional as well, to be consistent...).

What does freeing of faction leaders do, exactly?

Hotseat / PBEM, that goes obviously in. Nice.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 27, 2014, 10:38:51 pm
Changes between versions which SMACers are okay with (kyrub you can veto these, just let me know)
Freeing captured faction leaders probe op (?)
New landmarks (?)
-Borehole Cluster, Unity Wreckage, the Manifold Nexus, Fossil Ridge
Hotseat/PBEM support

As I have said, my stance on "changes" is really conservative. From my experience from working patches for old games, I find it important to be able to show the new hybrid game and say: truly, you may play your old SMAC, if you wish (there is a good number of players, who want their "retro" experience.) No hidden surprise, and you may share our goods (patches/mods/experience) with the community. - For optional content, there's always room.

Landmarks: Borehold cluster and Manifold Nexus is in SMAC v.4. For me, that means that it automatically goes in our hybrid. The other two, I don't know. I really like Fossil Ridge as a landmark, but I have many doubts about Unity Wreckage from the description. Can anybody explain more? -- Do I want to know where other factions are? Nah, that's game changer, we old gamers like our slow uncovering of the shrowd.  And what is Mining Laser, please? Engine Core, huh? (And if we don't admit Unity wreckage, then we should make Fossil Ridge optional as well, to be consistent...).

What does freeing of faction leaders do, exactly?

Hotseat / PBEM, that goes obviously in. Nice.
I'm happy with keeping the BC and MN. A variable to make the other two optional seems reasonable. The Unity Wreckage's Mining Laser is a no armor laser infantry with a special name, and the Engine Core gives a chunk of credits (iirc it's around 100-150, can't test from here). I've never found the wreakage to be particularly great, but it's a fun thing to come across with four minor one-off bonuses. It's nice if you get to it really early, and pretty much pointless if you get it late.

Freeing captured faction leaders is a probe operation with really low chance of success which can only be performed at the HQ of a faction which captured the last base of another faction. If it works it restarts the faction who was captured on a random unoccupied part of the map giving them all the units they had in play at the time they lost their last base (maybe plus a colony pod or two), and makes the newly freed faction love you/pact with you for rescuing them. It's pretty fun imo for flavor and roleplay, but basically never is going to make a major difference to the outcome of the game. If you want to be super purist then it should be optional, but imo it's a minor/fun/flavourful addition to the game. Your call entirely though, glad to have you moving to the SMAX engine :)
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 27, 2014, 10:45:03 pm
How would the SMACers feel about, rather than removing the second seven menu, replacing the factions on it with Dio's alternate original seven? No SMAX factions intruding on the flavor, more options to play with, gets more publicity for Dio's cool project, and much less hard to code because no need to edit actual menus (should be mostly straightforward text changes?).
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 27, 2014, 10:58:06 pm
That's an interesting idea.  It's not inappropriate, given Dio's retro inspiration.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Lord Avalon on April 27, 2014, 11:10:11 pm
Re: Unity Wreckage - IIRC if you're first to the bridge, you get the location of everyone's landing site (well, humans - aliens haven't landed when that info was recorded). One of the pods provides the Unity Scout Chopper, 1-1-8 SAM, which might not make it back to one of your bases if you're playing on a large/huge map. Energy credits could come in handy if you're short.

If the units are far enough away, they're independent, which might be useful if you can later upgrade them. If they're attached to a home base and being outside your borders causes unhappiness, that's a penalty.


Is the land where the wreckage is always arid?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: kyrub on April 27, 2014, 11:27:07 pm
I'm happy with keeping the BC and MN. A variable to make the other two optional seems reasonable.
Good.
@ete and @LordAvalon, thanks for description. I'd like to keep that optional, even 100-150 credits is really strong early and I would rather avoid knowing where other players are.

Freeing leaders: I suggest keep it in the game. Reason: It is entirely optional, for the player to choose the action himself. One may easily play a game without noticing. And it is not a strong feature; it also sits well with the original theme.

SMAX factions: (I may surprise here some of you.) Could we actually keep the option to add new factions in a SMAC game? I mean, the player chooses himself the setup, no? As far as the old factions are default setup, I'd go with it, it's simple enough. (Surely, that brings up the question of alien factions, which I'd like to avoid... as it really makes the game different, not sure how to face this). Any ideas on it? Different opinions from fellow SMACers here?

Dio, what are your factions? Where should I look?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 27, 2014, 11:50:59 pm
Okay on freeing faction leaders. Very rarely an AI may use it (I've literally never had it in all my games, but have heard of it happening), but, yea, it has minimal real impact.

Current versions of Dio's factions are on the last page of this thread, and outline for the project on the first: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4102.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4102.0)

They're remakes of the original 7 with custom bases and stuff, partially based on pre-release art/info, with the constraint of using every available bonus and penalty at least once in the set. There's also the option of including them as a bunch of custom factions pre-loaded in alphax to consider.

I don't have a strong opinion on allowing SMAX factions to be selectable, but bear in mind that they can be added as custom factions either way and having them available by default means you could get them if you roll random.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 28, 2014, 01:21:52 am
I think replacing the set of seven SMAX factions (as the second of the three faction choice boxes, if you know what I mean) with something else would be a good idea. I haven't had a look through Dio's factions, though, so I can't comment on them.

If possible, all valid faction files should be selectable from the little arrow menu (is this one of those impossible things? I think Yitzi has said so).

I think that adding new interludes is a very good idea, and I'd be up for writing a couple. Does anyone know whether this can be done without .exe modding?

I think some of the more overtly gamey diplomacy dialogue might be altered too; every time you sign a treaty, you get reminded that this will increase trade between your people with the same words. It would be nice to word this more subtly and to do it differently for each faction.

I think it would be a good idea to keep all artificial landmarks removable. The flavour of the game changes if there's evidence of prior inhabitation and each of the landmarks do slightly weird things.

Ideally, we could make each landmark selectable for new random maps, but I expect that's a task for yitzi.

The Unity Wreckage in particular should be removable as it has weird effects that could ruin the flavour of modded games. The argument for removal of the borehole cluster is similar: it's mechanical effect marks it as not-natural, which makes it harder to mod it into a natural landmark, even if you can reskin it.

---

Anyway, is anyone experimenting with the suggested text file changes? Seems (naively) like it would be fairly easy to just copy the SMAC tech tree over.

The unit stuff is a little weirder. I did some research on that years ago: http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?3191-Customizing-supply-pod-goodies&p=114692#post114692 (http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?3191-Customizing-supply-pod-goodies&p=114692#post114692)

The relevant lines are that fungal towers get experience based on the amount of fungus around them (which depending on the fix could cause problems) and that sealurks don't get free movement in sea fungus as Isles of the Deep do.

EDIT: Apparently scient fixed the sealurk thing, so just doing a straight replace should be fine.

For anyone new to alphax editing, darsnan and Ruben wrote a good reference guide here http://www.civgaming.net/wiki/index.php/Alpha(x).txt_editing (http://www.civgaming.net/wiki/index.php/Alpha(x).txt_editing)

It's not up to date with the unofficial patches, though.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 01:28:27 am
The text of the interludes is easy to alter, of course.  Adding triggers for new ones would take .exe modding, yes.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 02:03:56 am
Is the land where the wreckage is always arid?
I think -too lazy to check- it's just that the landscape art for the wreckage looks arid.  They had to pick a background.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: kyrub on April 28, 2014, 02:09:49 am
I don't have a strong opinion on allowing SMAX factions to be selectable, but bear in mind that they can be added as custom factions
Ah, OK then by me.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Geo on April 28, 2014, 12:17:20 pm
On avoiding SMACX factions when starting a game: there's the option to "play with original factions" during faction setup. So there's no real need to edit them out in a SMAC-adjusted alphax file.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: diessa on April 28, 2014, 02:55:07 pm
@kyrub You can find Dio's alternate original seven factions here (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4102.0).

Re: SMAX factions

Moving them to the custom faction pool is an easy solution that provides unobtrusive choices to the player, so I continue to consider it as a strong option. I'm unsure what to do with the SMAX faction menu. In the design document, I suggested disabling it. Would that be possible, mechanically? However, providing a set of factions, such as Dio's, sounds like a good option to me as well.

Re: Landmarks

Can we control where the Unity Wreckage spawns? Could we, for example, put a minimum distance on it to prevent it from spawning adjacent to a faction starting area? That would prevent its modest benefits from being accessed too early. I played a game on the normal Map of Planet, and the wreckage was beside the Freshwater Sea. I found that too close for balance and too crowded in general (i.e., that area had wreckage, the sea, and two factions).

@Lord Avalon I can confirm that the wreckage makes the soil arid.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 28, 2014, 03:53:25 pm
"If possible, all valid faction files should be selectable from the little arrow menu (is this one of those impossible things? I think Yitzi has said so)."
There's a limit on the custom factions you can have loaded into the custom factions menu (8 or 9 iirc). Expanding that may be doable if it's just making room for more bytes, but it may involve annoying GUI work which would make it extremely hard. We can preload one set of 7 in the custom faction menu though.

@diessa: removing the middle menu is possible with .exe editing, like everything else, but working with GUI/menus is particularly tricky and replacing the SMAX factions with others (Dio's, Sigma's, or jarlwolf's, they all have a pack of seven) would be both much easier and showcase some of the community's best factions.

Again for unity wreakage it would be *possible*, but likely a lot of work for little gain. Making it optionally disableable seems like a better idea.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Yitzi on April 28, 2014, 04:19:38 pm
"If possible, all valid faction files should be selectable from the little arrow menu (is this one of those impossible things? I think Yitzi has said so)."
There's a limit on the custom factions you can have loaded into the custom factions menu (8 or 9 iirc). Expanding that may be doable if it's just making room for more bytes, but it may involve annoying GUI work which would make it extremely hard. We can preload one set of 7 in the custom faction menu though.

Making room for more bytes is also fairly difficult in many cases.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 28, 2014, 07:17:59 pm
Right. Generally less crazy than attempting GUI modifications though?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 07:26:40 pm
Hmmm.  The X faction select screen is just plain better, and the only problem is that some people really object to the second seven factions.  Less modification is better, provided it still pleases those who otherwise regect X.  I have a set of alt. original seven that are literally nothing but the original seven with the names and graphics changed.  Is there something in that for vanilla lovers?
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 28, 2014, 07:42:02 pm
I've been doing some fiddling. A prospective smac_in_smax mod file is attached.

I've managed to remove fungal towers from view. Making them air units didn't work, but turning them into foils does. They don't appear on the initial map and only appear for one turn when produced by a pod. I've given them cloaking devices so that they're even harder to spot.

Spore Launchers can be replaced easily and transparently (and I've done so, only tell at the moment is I've left the name different for testing reasons).

Replacing sealurks with isles of the deep doesn't work properly because slot 10 (isle of the deep) use a hardcoded .cvr file if you set the display option to auto-generate (-1), but slot 15 (sealurks) will display a normal foil unit with the appropriate weapons if you set it to -1.

The only possible fix without .exe modding are to draw an isle of the deep graphic in units.pcx (but then it won't rotate like normal IoD). (Trying to drown the unit by making it infantry won't kill it if it spawns in water).

Don't know how to properly remove Battle Ogres. Probably not possible as those slots are hardcoded to both spawn from pods and be unrepairable and unaffected by monoliths. Looks like they'll have to be a .exe thing.

I think the Mk1 Ogre is also hardcoded to be given to the usurpers.

For now, I set them to be "Unity Robotic Formers" with clean reactors, which is less weird than the ogres.

Depending on how the game handles native life generation, having no fungal towers could make native life weaker than normal. But we could buff that.

I've also replaced the opening film, menu background and maps of planet (copied and renamed the files from smac). The buttons are still green, though.

I've played a very pleasant game with this mod on today and everything works as intended. (Currently sealurks use the sealurk art but act as IoD).

Left to do in non-exe modding:
Change back to the SMAC tech tree. (#TECHNOLOGY)
Remove alien crossfire entries from the datalinks.
Possibly re-write the borehole interlude
Change default second set of factions (#NEWFACTIONS)
Change list of custom factions (#CUSTOMFACTIONS)
Add the best of the custom units CMN's have been using to make the AI smarter

New exe-modding necessary to provide tools to make this mod:
Change button colours
Provide switches to enable/disable native lifeform types from being spawned or appearing in pods
Provide switches to enable/disable units appearing in pods
Provide switches for landmarks

Useful but not strictly necessary .exe modding
Make the special abilities associated with particular slot numbers in #UNITS (no repair + no monolith interaction, fungus walk) into normal special abilities.

@ete
In your list, you also have stuff about adding new weapons and armour. I think that's quite contentious and could be out of scope for a "smac in the smax engine" project.

@others
Do we want to remove all smax technologies, units and facilities or are there some that clearly add to the game and should not be removed even from this quite conservative mod?

Alternatively, am I wrongly characterising this as a quite conservative modding effort?

Attached mod doesn't have the video in it because it's too big. Just copy opening.wve from movies to openingx.wve in the mod.

Also, I may be using the wrong maps of chiron, haven't tested that part yet.

@BUncle, et. al
I think keeping the existing smax faction select screen is a good idea. Replacing the second set of factions with an alt set is also easy and a good idea.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 08:15:27 pm
http://alphacentauri2.info/My%20Custom%20Factions/Custom%20Factions.htm#Alternate%20Offical%20Factions (http://alphacentauri2.info/My%20Custom%20Factions/Custom%20Factions.htm#Alternate%20Offical%20Factions)

It turns out I never bothered with the text files on most of them, because I was expecting Darsnan to take care of that - but I recall from the ones I did that it's a very minor job.  Change a few names in the faction.txt, and the name of the first (founding and headquarters) base on the list for good measure.  All the bases would be even better but coming up with 30 or so new names is a real job. 

Anyone who took an interest in making .txts would be welcome to go to it  with my blessing.

These all have the original bases, hue-shifted, so they're playable alongside their originals - this was inspired by some artless splinter factions of Darsnan's with a lot of input from him on many, as he liked to use splinter factions in scenarios set on other planets.  I no longer remember what-all was just me.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: kyrub on April 28, 2014, 08:32:00 pm
Hmmm.  The X faction select screen is just plain better, and the only problem is that some people really object to the second seven factions.

My problem is that I don't have SMAX installed, so I really don't know what GUI we are talking about. That's why I don't have a clear opinion on it. I will try to have a look at them somewhere.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 09:10:18 pm
This ought to give you a pretty good idea of it, if you ignore that my folders are, naturally, full of custom factions - the first screen ought to be the original seven.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 28, 2014, 09:45:29 pm
On BC and MN giving evidence of prior habitation which harms flavor: Monoliths. Prior habitation evidence was there from the start, and those landmarks were in SMAC.

@BU: I like the idea of showcasing some cool new community factions more than having clones of defaults. Giving wider choice of factions is great for repeat playability.

I've been doing some fiddling. A prospective smac_in_smax mod file is attached.

I've managed to remove fungal towers from view. Making them air units didn't work, but turning them into foils does. They don't appear on the initial map and only appear for one turn when produced by a pod. I've given them cloaking devices so that they're even harder to spot.
That sounds good. Not perfect, but should make FTs do basically nothing.

Quote
Spore Launchers can be replaced easily and transparently (and I've done so, only tell at the moment is I've left the name different for testing reasons).
Replaced by MWs?

Quote
Replacing sealurks with isles of the deep doesn't work properly because slot 10 (isle of the deep) use a hardcoded .cvr file if you set the display option to auto-generate (-1), but slot 15 (sealurks) will display a normal foil unit with the appropriate weapons if you set it to -1.

The only possible fix without .exe modding are to draw an isle of the deep graphic in units.pcx (but then it won't rotate like normal IoD). (Trying to drown the unit by making it infantry won't kill it if it spawns in water).
Right.. maybe copying each angle of the IoD image into units.pcx would give it correct rotation?

Quote
Don't know how to properly remove Battle Ogres. Probably not possible as those slots are hardcoded to both spawn from pods and be unrepairable and unaffected by monoliths. Looks like they'll have to be a .exe thing.

I think the Mk1 Ogre is also hardcoded to be given to the usurpers.

For now, I set them to be "Unity Robotic Formers" with clean reactors, which is less weird than the ogres.
hm, I think ideally we'd want the pod pop for BOs to reroll the pod pop until it got a non-BO event? Otherwise you've either got a new event or imbalanced chances for existing events, even if you figure out how to turn the BO into some other SMAC pod event.

Quote
Depending on how the game handles native life generation, having no fungal towers could make native life weaker than normal. But we could buff that.
Yep, seems sensible.
Quote
I've also replaced the opening film, menu background and maps of planet (copied and renamed the files from smac). The buttons are still green, though.
Good stuff :)
Quote
I've played a very pleasant game with this mod on today and everything works as intended. (Currently sealurks use the sealurk art but act as IoD).

Left to do in non-exe modding:
Change back to the SMAC tech tree. (#TECHNOLOGY)
Remove alien crossfire entries from the datalinks.
Possibly re-write the borehole interlude
Change default second set of factions (#NEWFACTIONS)
Change list of custom factions (#CUSTOMFACTIONS)
Add the best of the custom units CMN's have been using to make the AI smarter

New exe-modding necessary to provide tools to make this mod:
Change button colours
Provide switches to enable/disable native lifeform types from being spawned or appearing in pods
Provide switches to enable/disable units appearing in pods
Provide switches for landmarks

Useful but not strictly necessary .exe modding
Make the special abilities associated with particular slot numbers in #UNITS (no repair + no monolith interaction, fungus walk) into normal special abilities.
Sounds great :D. I'd also add in switching the graphics of the middle faction select UI for something without progenitors, if there's an artist who can make that happen. Oh, and a few misc text files like labels.txt may need tweaks here and there to remove progenitor references.
Quote
@ete
In your list, you also have stuff about adding new weapons and armour. I think that's quite contentious and could be out of scope for a "smac in the smax engine" project.
At that point I was writing it as a SMAC->SMAX changelist and referring to SMAX specific modules which need removing, nothing to add  don't worry :)
Quote
@others
Do we want to remove all smax technologies, units and facilities or are there some that clearly add to the game and should not be removed even from this quite conservative mod?

Alternatively, am I wrongly characterising this as a quite conservative modding effort?
All those not in SMAC should go. People who want SMAX stuff can add in exactly what they want, and many who want it will be purists.
Quote
Attached mod doesn't have the video in it because it's too big. Just copy opening.wve from movies to openingx.wve in the mod.

Also, I may be using the wrong maps of chiron, haven't tested that part yet.

@BUncle, et. al
I think keeping the existing smax faction select screen is a good idea. Replacing the second set of factions with an alt set is also easy and a good idea.
Excellent progress :)
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 10:10:12 pm
I'm not married to using the clones; just throwing it out there as possibly the best of both worlds for those averse to X, to get something a little fresh but not too different - I'd think the opinion of guys like diessa and kyrub is what matters.  [shrugs]  For me, more different is better, but this project isn't for me.  Showcasing the community's modding work is definitely a great idea if the target audience is comfortable with that.  Dio's retro-factions is probably a better idea for them than my alt. version clones.  Dunno.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 28, 2014, 10:34:21 pm
On BC and MN giving evidence of prior habitation which harms flavor: Monoliths. Prior habitation evidence was there from the start, and those landmarks were in SMAC.

I had the dumb. Of course.

Quote
@BU: I like the idea of showcasing some cool new community factions more than having clones of defaults. Giving wider choice of factions is great for repeat playability.

I agree that using non-clones would be a good idea. That doesn't preclude using some of BUncle's artwork, though. He's made some great faction art over the years.

Quote
I've managed to remove fungal towers from view...
That sounds good. Not perfect, but should make FTs do basically nothing.

It's a bit of a kludge and is detectable by the player in rare cases. It would be better to make the native life togglable, of course.

Quote
Spore Launchers can be replaced easily and transparently (and I've done so, only tell at the moment is I've left the name different for testing reasons).

Yep. They work fine and the planet AI seems to use them exactly as it does other mindworms.

Quote
Quote
Replacing sealurks with isles of the deep doesn't work properly because slot 10 (isle of the deep) use a hardcoded .cvr file if you set the display option to auto-generate (-1), but slot 15 (sealurks) will display a normal foil unit with the appropriate weapons if you set it to -1.

The only possible fix without .exe modding are to draw an isle of the deep graphic in units.pcx (but then it won't rotate like normal IoD). (Trying to drown the unit by making it infantry won't kill it if it spawns in water).
Right.. maybe copying each angle of the IoD image into units.pcx would give it correct rotation?

Units that use an image from the 2d sprite sheet (units.pcx) don't ever rotate, so we'd have to just choose one rotation for the sealurks if we were to do that. There are multiple images per unit, but they're used for the different morale levels, not rotations.

Quote
Quote
Don't know how to properly remove Battle Ogres...

For now, I set them to be "Unity Robotic Formers" with clean reactors, which is less weird than the ogres.

hm, I think ideally we'd want the pod pop for BOs to reroll the pod pop until it got a non-BO event? Otherwise you've either got a new event or imbalanced chances for existing events, even if you figure out how to turn the BO into some other SMAC pod event.

The battle ogre pods are really rare anyway, so I don't think it's that big a deal. But yeah, the best solution here requires more control that alphax.txt gives us. Hopefully yitzi or kyrub can help out here.

Quote from: DrazharLn
I've played a very pleasant game with this mod on today and everything works as intended. (Currently sealurks use the sealurk art but act as an IoD).

Left to do in non-exe modding:
Change back to the SMAC tech tree. (#TECHNOLOGY)
Remove alien crossfire entries from the datalinks.
Possibly re-write the borehole interlude
Change default second set of factions (#NEWFACTIONS)
Change list of custom factions (#CUSTOMFACTIONS)
Add the best of the custom units CMN's have been using to make the AI smarter

New exe-modding necessary to provide tools to make this mod:
Change button colours
Provide switches to enable/disable native lifeform types from being spawned or appearing in pods
Provide switches to enable/disable units appearing in pods
Provide switches to disable the cloning event
Provide switches for landmarks

Useful but not strictly necessary .exe modding
Make the special abilities associated with particular slot numbers in #UNITS (no repair + no monolith interaction, fungus walk) into normal special abilities.

Forgot one. The pod dropping a unity gunship is also new, I think. That could be removed, but I don't think there's much reason too.

Quote
Sounds great :D. I'd also add in switching the graphics of the middle faction select UI for something without progenitors, if there's an artist who can make that happen. Oh, and a few misc text files like labels.txt may need tweaks here and there to remove progenitor references.

The image to edit for the faction select screen is pickfac.pcx. It should be fairly easy to create a replacement once a set of new factions has been selected.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 29, 2014, 05:48:36 am
Played for a while longer (I had forgotten how fun SMAC is). Even with the spore launchers disabled, I once got a message saying that spore launchers had destroyed a terrain enhancement. I never saw any, though.

I also got a message saying that "Mindworms 16" (my replacement name for the spore launchers) had destroyed a terrain enhancement.

I've seen two sealurks so far. Unfortunately, both were broken. I could see them through the fog of war all the time and neither moved in all the time I could see them. One of them spawned on land and couldn't get out, too.

So, looks like disabling them will take some exe fiddling. The AI also seemed really incompetent (hardly any terraforming).

I've attached a save where you can clearly see the beached sealurk (near the Gaians).
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 29, 2014, 11:47:11 am
I'm guessing they destroyed enhancements by sitting on them, or the message is just wrong. Either way maybe we could fix with text? Switching the message to something like "Mind Worms swarm near <base>" is one option? Or leaving the message as-is if the worms are actually destroying terraforming by sitting on the square and using destroy enhancement.

Sealurk bugs sound annoying. And yea, without kyrub's fixes AI terraforming is appalling. Which is part of why I'm so keen on this project :)
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 29, 2014, 12:26:57 pm
You're right. The appropriate file is Script.txt and I've changed it appropriately.

Depending on if the #SPORESLAUNCHED and #SPOREFOREST events are called, the game could still be destroying your enhancements with phantom units.

tutor.txt also retains a mention for #SPORELAUNCHER which is presumably called the first time they're seen. I could remove it, but I haven't tested what the game does yet if it can't find a string for a tutorial. I'll do that later with the drone riots tutorial or something.

Latest version of the mod (minus movie) is attached.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: diessa on April 29, 2014, 09:15:21 pm
I think that the Borehold Cluster could remain, but it ought to have the interlude changed. The interlude establishes a more active, recent alien presence. If that was changed, then I could see it, the Manifold Nexus, and Monoliths being compatible. The issue isn't that something/someone was there before, but we need to take care about drawing clear connections to the aliens presented in SMAX; I think that keeping it mysterious, open, and ancient is fine. I don't mind the nexus, either, but it can be problematic knowing that it was added to be a object that aliens were fighting over. It constraints the possibilities and openness of the alien presence. As I said, with minor changes all could possibly be kept, but we need to recognize the connections between the original and expansion that were added post-hoc. They aren't necessarily bad so long as we question their purpose and value to the game.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Geo on April 29, 2014, 09:18:09 pm
IIRC, the interlude mentions the borehole cluster as only 'slightly younger' then the surrounding monoliths, so the timescale shouldn't be an issue.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: diessa on April 29, 2014, 09:40:18 pm
Yes, Geo, good point. I found the interlude file and confirmed that it is only slightly newer. The shocking part of it is that they came from the stars (so no surprise there). If the BC interlude doesn't contradict, then we have some options. I think there is a case for and against them, but it seems that the decision won't have a significant impact.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 03:23:44 am
I've done most of the .txt work today. Here's a summary:

Done previously:
* Sort of disabled towers
* Replaced spores with worms (incl. event text)

Done today:
* Restored the SMAC tech tree
* Disabled SMACX weapons, defenses, facilities, secret projects and special abilities that were accessible from the SMAC tech tree.
* Removed alien crossfire entries from the datalinks (helpx.txt and conceptsx.txt) (actually just made most of them invisible)
* Removed references to alien crossfire stuff in datalinks.

I did a diff between the smac files and the smacx files when performing the regressions and only left mechanical differences where Yitzi had made them. Which is to say, I did a thorough job and I'm sure the tech tree etc are as they were in SMAC.

Still to do, not exe modding:
* possibly some changes to tutor.txt
* change the nutrient, mineral and energy datalinks entries so they actually explain the limitations at the start of the game.
* work out when btsealrk.pcx and friends are used.
* work out when sealrk_sm.pcx and friends are used.
* Change default second set of factions (#NEWFACTIONS)
* Change list of custom factions (#CUSTOMFACTIONS)
* Add the best of the custom units CMN's have been using to make the AI smarter


I played around a bit more, popping pods, trying to work out which images are used for what (to know what replacing the sealurk, tower and spore launcher images would do), popping pods and checking how visible towers are.

I found that towers are almost invisible to the player (and in any case disappear after one turn if on land). The cloaking seems to work correctly and you can only see them if you're next to them.

It's also possible for more towers to be generated as the game goes on. These will disappear quickly but could be detected by sensors. It's also possible for towers to appear and for the terrain they're on to be submerged on the same turn. This will produce a permanent tower.

I had the AI play a game while I spectated Yang, but, despite my encouragement, the mindworms never touched his terrain enhancements, so I didn't get to see the changed script for those events. Should probably work, though. For now the script displayed to the player includes the game's name for the script in all caps for debugging.

I also checked the pod popping dialogues and none of them make explicit reference to fungal towers, spore launchers or sealurks: there's an isle of the deep pod and a generic native life pod. So that's all fine.

Latest version of the mod attached.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 04:17:52 am
I went ahead and modified tutor.txt to remove the Spore Launchers entry. It's now an almost-replicant of the mind worm entry. I also removed all the references to the alien factions while I was there.

If the community could pick a new set of factions to bundle with this and if someone could investigate when the bt<native lifeform>.pcx and <native lifeform>_sm.pcx files are used and if the spore launcher ones need removing, then we're very almost done with things that can be done outside the binaries.

For the friendly .exe modders, these are the most useful new alphax features for this project in order of importance:
Switch to disable sealurks/fungal towers/spore launchers being spawned or appearing in pods
Switch to disable ogres appearing in pods
Switch to disable the cloning event
Switch to disable Unity Crash Site
Switches to disable the other landmarks

To make things a bit neater, it would be good if either we had a way to stop custom units appearing in the datalinks and/or if you could make disabled native life and ogres not appear in the datalinks (I've tried and I don't think this can be done from text files)

@Whomever was discussing the unity chopper previously:
It was possible to pick up a unity chopper from pods in SMAC, too.

edit: actually attached file.

I think I've done rather more than I really have time for on this project, so I encourage someone else to take my files and experiment along the lines I suggested or just test to see what the sealurks do or whatever. Using a mod manager has helped the development process, so you might want one of them, too.

Best of luck, everyone. If someone could send me an email when the AI patches get moved across, that would be nice, too.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: ete on April 30, 2014, 12:29:23 pm
Excellent work! I can't test from here, but if I recall correctly you can hide units from the datalinks like:

*Sea Formers,           Foil,     Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Supply Crawler,         Infantry, Supply,       Scout,     10, 0, 0, IndAuto, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Probe Team,             Speeder,  Probe Team,   Scout,     11, 0, 0, PlaNets, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Alien Artifact,         Infantry, Artifact,     Scout,     12,10, 0, Disable,  2, 00000000000000000000000000

the sea formers. And I'll start a topic to discuss collect default custom units.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 01:35:56 pm
That looks like it should work, but it just doesn't. Slot 5 is just hidden no matter what you put in there. All other slots will always be shown no matter what their names are.

I think the unit is only actually made by scenarios and the time warp event and the asterisk is just there to signify that for some reason.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Geo on April 30, 2014, 08:32:01 pm
I think the unit is only actually made by scenarios and the time warp event and the asterisk is just there to signify that for some reason.

That would imply seaformers are not predefined like land formers are for the AI.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 10:46:06 pm
Well, it's predefined, but its pre-requisite is set to Disabled, so it's not possible to build it (and it's not dropped from pods).

The only way for it to get in the game is for some unusual event to put it there.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: Yitzi on May 01, 2014, 01:55:44 am
Well, it's predefined, but its pre-requisite is set to Disabled, so it's not possible to build it (and it's not dropped from pods).

The only way for it to get in the game is for some unusual event to put it there.

Not quite; a premade unit can be allowed by either its prerequisite, or by the combination of prerequisites of all its components.  Thus, sea formers can be built once you are able to build both sea units and formers.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on May 01, 2014, 03:19:47 am
And yet the sea formers in the build menu don't have names that start with a *.

I think this could be one of those things where different #UNITS are treated differently.
Title: Re: Comprehensive SMAC->SMAX changelist
Post by: DrazharLn on May 05, 2016, 02:20:02 pm
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