Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 03:49:25 am
Thinker mod March 26, 2019 |
Induktio put out a new development version of Thinker mod. I put out version 1.29 of SMACX AI Growth mod. Now I test them together. Things he did:
* New parameter: hurry_items allows AI to use energy reserves to hurry production
* Major adjustments to faction_placement to improve starting locations
* Faction placement now creates two extra nutrient resources for each land-based faction
* Fix spawning issues on Map of Planet
* Fix sea colony pods sometimes freezing in place
* Fix sea bases sometimes not building enough transports
* Rebalancing of social_ai priorities
I am curious to see if faction_placement has improved.
I agree with the 2 nutrient idea in principle. It could stabilize faction starts so that nobody gets a hopeless beginning. Current implementation is unfortunately bugged, verifiably, in the case of the Caretakers and the Usurpers. Probably also the Cult of Planet. Factions that start late, that are inserted into the map, don't currently get this bonus. No idea if that's fixable. Aquatic factions also don't get the bonus, but they don't need it. They swim in food.
I blew my patience for "detailed testing writeups" on other stuff already. Notably, whether Pirate minerals could be balanced. I didn't come up with a solution. I didn't even come up with proof that a solution was needed. Well I guess a scientifically minded person needs to go where evidence leads him. It just can be a lot of work to get results like that. Maintaining a status quo, that you have a sinking feeling is a problem, doesn't leave one with a good feeling that it's time well spent! On the other hand, anyone can be in danger of slipping into cognitive biases, so maybe it wasn't a complete loss.
This time I'll probably only write up things I find "noteworthy". I already found the 2 nutrient placement bug. That was noteworthy. I'm not going to play a game with the "late start" factions. They'll have to sit out until Induktio comes up with a fix. I'll just randomly generate games until they aren't in them. I won't worry about the Pirates because they have enough food anyways.
Not including "late start" factions, happens to nerf the testing stress of faction_placement. Something I first noticed when trying to decide the fairness of "same start, see who does best" competitions, ala the various Games of the Month in the Command Nexus multiplayer forum.
Huge map, 30%..50% land mass with my large continents and large oceans, average settings. Transcend difficulty. Default thinker.ini settings including cost_factor and faction_placement. Random opponents, exclusive of "late start" factions. It takes nine starts to get factions that don't have a "late starter" among them. It was painful enough that I was starting to think I should do some kind of offline random generation, such as rolling dice. If I ever feel the need to do it again, I could write the names of eligible factions on same size pieces of paper, then pull them out of a hat.
twist my arm off to be Gaian |
I draw the Gaians. Peacekeepers, Spartans, Cyborgs, Data Angels, Believers, and University are in the game. For once no Pirates, whoopie! It has been nearly impossible to generate a random test game without them.
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 04:04:29 am
you would have to make people happy to eat this |
MY 2101. My landing site was Flat Moist terrain, so I just settled it. I always prefer Flat terrain for city sites, as that way I improve the minerals content of the square by settling upon it. I hate to waste a Rolling mineral by dropping a city on it.
I am made to realize that this is too much food for a single early game base. Once the base reaches size 2, it won't help the productivity of spewing out colony pods. It will actually hurt it, unless I plant a forest and manage the squares manually. I bet the AI factions are not bright enough to realize this and will fail to increase productivity when their base hits size 2.
We have discussed the giving of 1 forest and 1 nutrient, a much more ideal arrangement from a strictly gamist standpoint. I object to it on narrativist and simulationist grounds however. Trees shouldn't be showing up on Planet without human action.
I could choose to delay cities by spreading my colonists apart. That wasn't desirable with this landing site though. I could choose to overlap my initial city sites, but I hate doing that. I'm sure the AI is not so picky about it.
I note furthermore that a nutrient special placed upon Rocky terrain, is not as initially valuable as other kinds. Eventually that will be fixed when I get a Former and have the time to Level Terrain. Fortunately in my mod, that only takes 4 turns to complete instead of 8. I feel sorry for the poor bastards who aren't using my mod.
Well let's see what else we can do. Like scare a mindworm up.
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 04:23:27 am
first mindworm |
MY 2113. I made Scouts until I captured my first mindworm. That took longer than expected.
USS Unity |
I have discovered the Unity crash site. Assuming I don't have any neighbors, that will get me a Gun Jet. Less importantly, an Impact drill. Bigger drills in my mod. And some money. And a clue where people are.
MY 2119. I learn Centauri Empathy and go Green. I have to disband a Scout from Gaia's Landing as I have too many. Both my cities have No Minerals now. But I've got units exploring in the field, and it's better to capture independent mindworms.
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 04:37:10 am
crafty like that |
MY 2121. I perform the cool trick of setting my city productions to Rover Formers, then completing a prototype by popping a pod. Now I can make Speeders and didn't have to pay 60 minerals worth of prototyping cost. Prototypes are 3X as expensive in my mod.
I have a lot of cash, so I decided to end the over-abundant food problem in my capitol by building a Rec Commons there.
MY 2122. I gain the University comm frequency from a pod. We sign a Treaty, but he will not trade techs.
fruits out of reach |
MY 2124. I discover the Monsoon Jungle.
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 04:49:56 am
I contact Zhakarov. Although he's well disposed, nothing comes of it.
I'm no longer as rich as I used to be. I change that Recreation Commons to a colony pod. My Gun Jet is costing me support there, so I reassign it to a city with more minerals.
MY 2126. I meet the Believers by a land link. They are Obstinate and do not sign anything.
Believer scuffling |
MY 2127. I don't want them spreading onto my land, so I block their way.
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 06:57:08 am
MY 2143. I learn Biogenetics, which makes Police State available. I switch to it. Now I can do something about having too much food.
MY 2152. I gain the Data Angels comm frequency from the University. We sign a Treaty and I buy some tech.
MY 2154. The Data Angels swear a Pact.
At 3 AM I go to bed.
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 04:51:48 pm
first Secret Project |
MY 2180. I complete the Ascetic Virtues with a huge wad of cash. I didn't have any competition for it. I've been a Police State. I'm starting to make Recreation Commons and will soon go Democratic, to make more money as I sit in relative isolation.
I've been in a Truce with the Believers this whole time, just blocking their advance with the 1 original Scout unit. They've spread some into the water. I stopped making new cities awhile back. Instead I put my focus into making a rail network, which is nearly complete. I've popped tons of supply pods all over the map. I've got a good fleet of Isles of the Deep. I have 3 allies and no actual enemies, just the standoff with the Believers.
I definitely had a perfectly good start and have found my progress so far to be rather easy. Just walk around and pop pods. I will sit around and grow and research and fill out the settlement holes in my own territory.
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 05:23:40 pm
Borehole threat |
MY 2184. The Data Angels finish the Weather Paradigm. I did not focus on Build and never got B3 Ecological Engineering. It's partly an Explore tech but in practice it doesn't tend to be gained without a Build focus. Now we will see if the Thinker AI makes the Data Angels go nuts with early Condensers and Boreholes.
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 09:40:06 pm
Cyberdummy |
MY 2193. My reserve of mindworms, spore launchers, and Isles is vast, so I don't know what crack she's smoking. She's not even close enough to me to cause me any problem. I think I'll tell the Spartans to kill her. Yep, Santiago is down with that!
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2019, 11:08:27 pm
sunspot races |
MY 2206. I complete the Planetary Transit System.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 12:11:54 am
We're in sunspots.
I've got nothing better to, so I'm going to Drill to Aquifer on all my Rocky squares. If I start them all at the same time, I'll maximize the number of rivers I end up with. I'm building a rail to the northwest to eventually connect with the Data Angels, just in case I need to invade them someday. They do have the Weather Paradigm after all. They could turn into a Condenser and Borehole monster. The game right now is pretty placid though. The graph doesn't think I'm any good, but I think I'm doing fine. There's no point building a lot of military units until and unless I'm going to invade the Believers. Or someone else that I connect to by a rail.
my Spartans do their job |
MY 2212. The Spartans ravage the Cyborgs. Now the Cyborgs might immediately take it back with a probe team for all I know, but it's the thought that counts! This is why I have allies.
I have decided to finally move my "guard Scout" away from Believer territory. I've established all the cities I want in that direction and have stopped them from encroaching. They keep walking stacks of 13 probe teams towards my front line. I have that stacked with mindworms that they can't do anything about. I have to click 13 times to interrogate them and send them all home.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 12:16:08 am
mah Spartans, they hate me |
MY 2213. I wasn't expecting multiple breakthroughs, but maybe Cyborg border cities are weak. The Spartans don't have good logistics to get to target, they're just walking units. They do have the Monsoon Jungle though. The Spartans hate me because they wanted war with the University and I told them to knock it off. They're definitely an ally of convenience.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 12:43:41 am
clever prototyper |
In the city next to a supply pod, I prepared an expensive prototype. An Impact Plasma Hovertank, which I'd never build in the real world. But if a pod might complete it for me when popped, make it as expensive as possible, right?? If I had been thinking even harder, I would have given it 2 abilities. The prototype cost was 300 minerals as is. Boom, it completes! Such a unit is not nearly so exciting, but hey I've got a well armed highly mobile tank for nothing.
This trick makes me realize the potential for abuse if I had supply crawlers available. I could prototype some new armor that's godawful expensive with the crawler. Then if it completes, BOOM! possibly a Secret Project finisher. This could be a downside to me jacking up the cost of supply crawlers in version 1.29 of my mod. On the other hand, maybe nobody will think of this trick, and it's unlikely to come up in real gameplay naturally. Well, who knows, but I'll worry about it some other time. If ever.
Is it possible to complete a Planet Buster this way? I've never tried to orchestrate that.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 30, 2019, 01:21:33 am
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 01:28:23 am
If you change production after popping a materials pod, you lose all the free mins, alas.
True, but I meant switching production to a Planet Buster prototype before I pop a pod. Just like I got that expensive Impact Plasma Hovertank prototype. I think there's nothing stopping me, I've just never tried to do it before. Pretty rare game that I even care about completing a Planet Buster anymore. I used to do it for sake of form, but I never use them, so why bother?
MY 2219. Sunspots end.
up goes the research |
MY 2220. Lucky me, what do I get? Something I was about to buy from my allies for 100 credits anyways? Yep.
MY 2222. I buy Environmental Economics, which makes Wealth possible. I could do it, but it will tick off the University. Well I think I can live with that, and they refused to sell me any tech this turn anyways.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 02:34:19 am
Just remembered that Wealth will tick off the Spartans too. I can live with that.
MY 2225. I change my budget to 50-10-40 to deal with Bureaucracy induced drone riots.
Peacekeepers my ass bet he started it |
MY 2226. Lal drags me into the war. His piss poor timing gets my Sea Former killed. At least now I can resume buying techs from my allies, as I don't have to worry about ducking them anymore.
MY 2227. I produce the 1st air unit on Planet! Probably because in my mod, a Needlejet chassis ain't cheap. I'm smart enough to make a Gun Jet for my prototype. It earns its pay by killing a stack of 14 Believer probe teams.
My mindworms on the front line with the Spartans didn't do so well. I could have had the city with the Citizens' Defense Force last year, but something weird happened with the interface where I couldn't see what was in the city. My 3 mindworms in the field were killed by a counterattack. I don't expect to be friends with Santiago for all that longer anyways, as she can be pretty snitty about Wealth. I abandon her front and go try to pop some pods to the east.
My biggest ambition in life is to make Tree Farms. Like I said, the Believers can't do anything to me, and other factions are starting to take their cities. A lot of my Aquifers just completed.
linkup with an ally |
MY 2228. The Data Angels give me Advanced Ecological Engineering. They also raise a land bridge between us, anticipating what I intended to do. Maybe they'll give me some good ground units?
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 03:34:53 am
sea extension |
MY 2231. Most of my Isles were acquired in the northern ocean, and it has no link to the southern ocean. Consequently, I had a pretty strong navy up there. I didn't intend to take these bases, I only meant to train my Isles and weaken the bases, so that my allies would take them. But it came to a point of "Eh" and might as well get my units healed for free. I didn't really want to have to worry about defending them from Believer probe teams, but maybe the Data Angels and the Peacekeepers will have those problems first, since their bases are closer to the enemy.
MY 2234. The Data Angels have bestowed upon me quite an air force, which I am using to terrorize the Believers.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 04:13:42 am
the meltdown of diplomacy |
Some of my allies are at war with each other. I don't plan to keep Zhakarov happy because he doesn't like my Wealth anyways. Whereas, I'm clearly doing much better just having Roze give me techs, than worrying about trying to discover them myself. I get Zhakarov to call off his war with her, but not with the Spartans.
Roze subverted the sea base he took from the Believers |
Lal's grievance is legitimate, but Roze is far more useful as an ally. For instance, Lal doesn't give me techs and planes! I get Lal to call off his war with Roze.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 05:03:17 am
I like brainwashing |
MY 2242. Roze makes a huge mistake and gives me Homo Superior. It enables the Empath Guild, which hasn't been built yet. I instantly rush it, mostly using a city that's been making a copy of something else since the stone ages.
So, either the AI is still dumb as rocks... or the AI thinks I'm dumb as rocks and must be pitied. This almost feels like one of those "Medicare coverage gap" style problems. If you can't be rich enough to beat the competition, it's better to be poorer than them, so that they'll give you free stuff!
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 05:38:29 am
my love for you always dies |
MY 2245. Santiago needs me to tell her she's just a plaything. Surprisingly she does not break our Pact. I tell her to knock off the war with Zhakarov, even though I really don't care. I bug Zhakarov to see if I can get cheap tech out of him, but he won't sell me anything. I don't talk to Roze because now I'm starting a pop boom with Eudaimonic and Socialist.
1:30 AM. Quitting for the night.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 04:03:33 pm
satellite of a greater power |
MY 2249. Roze continues to feed me free units. I think this must be what it's like to be a wartime ally of the USA. Now she's started giving drop units. They're flimsy, but the Believers are so beaten down from 5 of us dog piling them I figure eh, why not use the troops? In principle the Believers could subvert a city I take over. In practice I bet they're poor as dirt by now. Checking credit reserves, they've only got 161.
my troops are cheap |
MY 2250. I didn't even hire this help! Easy come easy go. Well the Believers are going to get overwhelmingly trashed regardless. It's not like I need their cities.
strange bedfellows |
This is confusing. I guess when you subvert a city, you only get the units of the owner of the city, and not any other factions in it.
I am so hurt |
They haven't sold me any techs since forever. Screw them.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 07:20:37 pm
My real objective is to complete my pop boom and change to Thought Control before the Data Angels cut me off. In my mod, Thought Control is their social compulsion. I have a vision of a Datajack Roze who let the hacking power go to her head!
MY 2253. I just pretty much throw away the troops I'm given in full frontal assaults. My MORALE is terrible and who wants to SUPPORT all this stuff? It's getting the job done, the Believers continue to lose cities. I didn't pay for any of it so who cares.
the big island |
MY 2255. I make my first Isle of the Deep, to do battle with the various AAA ships that the Believers still have. With a Biology Lab, Centauri Preserve, Xenoempathy Dome, and Pholus Mutagen they come out of the vats pretty fierce, a Great Boil. Landlocked cities are going to make Locusts of Chiron to go trash the Cyborg infrastructure.
This is basically my first manufactured military unit. It says a lot about how long it takes me to get stuff done, vs. other AI buffed factions.
I just lost some not terribly worthwhile planes attacking a wounded non-AAA Plasma unit in a city without a wall, that nevertheless had an Aerospace Complex. I haven't had many games where I've had to deal with that. Oh well, not like I don't have ground troops, or particularly needed those old planes. Full frontal assault mode still active.
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2019, 09:34:36 pm
a mindworm in every pot! |
I've got more votes than anyone now. I get myself elected Governor!
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 02:23:05 am
Roze is a generous jerk |
MY 2260. Roze subverted one of Lal's sea bases again. I calm the waters and buy 3 old techs from him that I forgot he had.
Santiago finally blows off our Pact.
take a bath |
I have wiped the Believers off the land. They only have 5 sea bases left, but still talk about executing me.
ingratiating myself to Roze |
All of my core cities have reached their maximum size for the food they have available. Most are size 16. Now I switch to Thought Control to keep Roze happy. She's Magnanimous, let the begging begin! :unworthy:
all you need is a hole in the head |
Yes, Roze, yes! We love the probe drilled into the cerebellum. Tell us how we might win this game! Industrial Automation for 150 credits? Sure thing Roze, next turn. I guess I'm not getting free tech, but that's ok, because it means I'll be able to buy a lot more tech next turn.
But what's this? What's this??!
HYPOCRISY |
Traitor! CURSE YOU, THINKER MOD, for breaking the rules of the game yet again!! Now that it counts, in this final hour of desperate pop booming and research, she is unrestrained. I am the victim here. She can't even remember how to hack.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 02:34:46 am
compulsive infiltration |
MY 2260. Lal infiltrated me 4 times this turn, and he already infiltrated me awhile back.
creepy loss of time |
Wait, what? Why does my turn counter say MY 2260? Previous screenshot shows that's the year I wiped the Believers off the continent. A turn has clearly passed, as the armored Hovertank that wiped out the last Believer city, now has 3 moves available again.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 03:11:37 am
not much of a bean counter |
I never learned Industrial Economics. I have not built a single Energy Bank this entire game! It's a little odd that some of my allies never learned it either. Ok, I guess Lal and Santiago just suck. Not like Santiago is my ally anymore anyways. Could be an enemy soon for all I know.
In other news of the weird, I think I'm missing a Locust. I could swear I had one heading south to bother the Cyborgs. Now I don't.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 03:35:49 am
scumbags |
MY 2261. I was wondering who my next victims might be. It'll be Lal if he keeps it up. I end our Pact. And if Roze jacks him again, I'm not going to stop her.
look I already got brain probes |
I sign a Truce with Aki Zeta5. We haven't scrapped over anything in a long time, and I'm not friends with the Spartans anymore. Aki gives me a piece of her enlightened Cyborg mind about my Thought Control.
Roze isn't selling me techs because she's working on the Network Backbone. I need silly things like Industrial Economics and Secrets of the Human Brain.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 03:45:06 am
ship with no radar costs 36 |
I've noticed a weird glitch where Deep Radar is actually costing me something on a ship. It shouldn't. The appropriate lines in my alphax.txt:
Code: [Select]
; Flags =
; 010000000000 = Cost increased for land units
;
Deep Radar, 0, DocInit, , 010000111111, Sees 2 spaces
ship with Deep Radar costs 45 |
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 04:45:14 am
back into the game |
MY 2262. I'm surprised I got this before anyone else. I'm building the Cloudbase Academy!
why |
I'm making Sealurks... because I can? Because I never do? Because I have no idea why I should prefer them to Isles of the Deep? Because it's an obscure aspect of the game, like Drilling to Aquifer? And what about Naomi?
University invents the crack pipe |
MY 2265. I'm soooo scared. I send the Data Angels to war against them. I'm building Flechette Defense Systems in all my major cities, just in case someone gets creative with Conventional Missiles.
I complete the Cloudbase Academy.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 05:15:35 am
cheating Trance probe team |
MY 2267. Thinker mod's unit designer blows off my mod's rules about probe teams. I don't allow them to have Trance. Mindworms are supposed to be my answer to the armored probe team problem.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 05:36:29 am
an advantage |
MY 2268. Maybe I can do some kind of super populous Diplomatic Victory thing?
old school |
I discover that I have one Hovertank probe team left over from the stone ages, and that I have a fungal highway straight to Zhakarov's cities. Maybe I'll finally get my Energy Bank and Secrets of the Human Brain? Roze sells me stuff, but then she cuts me off.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 06:31:43 am
isolated base |
MY 2270. The University thought it would be clever to subvert this Spartan base. It's actually a liability for them. I steal a tech, but there's a lock on the base and I lose my team. I'll let Santiago worry about conquering it.
secrets of AI price fixing |
MY 2271. I don't know what to think when such a late game tech is available for so cheap. I suppose if I don't use my Artifacts soon, they will have no value. However I just can't abide it when I can buy advanced techs for so little money. From a faction that doesn't even like me all that much.
I sign a Treaty with the Cyborgs and buy Secrets of the Human Brain from them. Good grief that took a long time!
the rare case of it actually mattering |
Oh goody! I haven't had time to make a satellite yet. Now I can finally see all those southern oceans I never had a chance to explore. And just how bad the Borehole situation is.
swiss cheese |
The Weather Paradigm driven Datatechs have been going nuts with Boreholes for a long time.
got bored of holes |
The University, on the other hand, did very little of it. I only see 2. Well, 3, as one of them has been conquered by the Datatechs.
Other factions never figured out the techs for either Condensers or Boreholes. The long delay has been effective.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 06:37:24 am
we don need no steenkin prereqs |
MY 2272. Just how often does one learn Quantum reactors before one learns how to make an Energy Bank?
This game pretty much feels like it's been "rubber banded" and what I do in the game doesn't matter. Maybe at the last minute, I'll actually take control of destiny. But Roze is doing Quantum Power, and I'm only barely getting Genejack Factories built. While building Hab Domes, go figure. And I'm the Governor, go figure again. But someone else is going to complete Clinical Immortality.
It's a drag keeping up with this Borehole driven tech. Is killing the faction with the Weather Paradigm, the only possible way to play the game now?
Or maybe setting cost_factor=10 and removing AI starting buffs is the only realistic way to deal with this.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 06:49:33 am
she never surrendered |
MY 2273. It took this long. Because, reasons. Like trying to compete with the Data Angels.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 04:05:43 pm
Roze's quantum supply crawlers |
MY 2275. A question arose: did the Data Angels ever make significant use of Supply Crawlers? I don't know. Earlier development versions of Thinker mod did not cash them to rush Secret Projects, but I don't know what this version does. What I can see, is that Roze currently has 4 Supply Crawlers, with 2 more coming.
even quantum crawlers cost roughly 50 minerals |
In my mod, the Supply Transport noncombat package type is so expensive that even with a Quantum reactor, it costs 50 minerals to produce the things. You can stick some free armor on them, but even then, only Synthmetal before your cost goes up. I've designed the cheapest Quantum Supply Crawler available. I have +1 INDUSTRY from Wealth, which is why the cost is 45. The AI will be paying 50 - whatever its various INDUSTRY bonuses are. I believe that's +3 for Transcend, and Roze is Democratic Green Wealth Cybernetic (the latter is cheating!), so another +1 for the Wealth. Believe she's paying 50 * 60% = 30 minerals per crawler.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 05:21:07 pm
democracy is so passe |
MY . Roze wants to knock off the Peacekeepers. I don't really consider this to be a goal, but I'm not ready to oppose her yet. I think I'll knock off 1 Peacekeeper city and call a Truce. Lal can consider it payback for having stolen from me once upon a time. Every time Roze bugs me to make war, I'll just take 1 more city.
Oh shoot, I totally forgot to actually fight the Peacekeepers. Just used to doing my usual turn drill. I hope I don't have to play the turn over again.
Roze and Noah |
MY 2278. That took a lot longer to happen than previous games. I think it's because nobody else developed a Condenser and Borehole civilization the way the Data Angels did.
Peacekeeper subterfuge |
Peacekeeper probe teams destroyed quite a few facilities in my border cities, and took one over, and stole various techs. I'm a bit blase about it mattering though, as if I have to fight the Data Angels, none of this matters. Fighting the Data Angels means the correct answer was to never let them get the Weather Paradigm in the 1st place, to play the whole early game around preventing that from happening. I resent that implication, so I don't find myself even interested in exploring it. I'm basically riding out this game to see what happens.
It's possible that Roze and I could pull off a joint Conquest victory. However it seems rather likely that she'll just Transcend. I'm morally opposed to Transcending and am not going to get in a foot race about it. It remains to be seen whether I'll try to play any kind of endgame or whether I'll just quit. It depends on whether I think there's anything interesting about the endgame at all, as opposed to be totally determined by AI buffs.
unanimity |
Everyone agrees that we should launch a Solar Shade. I hope it's enough. I don't have the patience to deal with global flooding on top of everything else. I'd probably just quit. I've seen it in like 13 previous test games and it gets old. I sit around having to deal with that as a basic productivity issue, instead of all the other "catch up" stuff I should be doing to deal with the leading faction.
I lose a mindworm fighting the Peacekeepers. When the heck did they build the Neural Amplifier? Looky looky, it's the only thing they did build. Hm, ok, UN Haven City. I think I could cut a path to that before calling it quits. Sucks to not have my mindworms work though. I start by taking back my city, using some Infantry so that I don't suffer any penalties for ECM or Psi attack. We'll see if they splash me with more probe teams next turn. I begrudgingly move my Fission Impact Needlejet air force towards the front, as it will help with probe team elimination. Lal is using a lot of the 3-Pulse armored probe teams.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 06:14:35 pm
can't count money |
MY 2279. My Gaians went a little overboard on eschewing Capitalism. Actually that wasn't the problem. They just kept asking their Great Patron to sell them tech, and they kept getting things more advanced than this. Meanwhile, various other factions never researched it at all. Go figure.
using up Artifacts |
MY 2281. I think I stole the tech for the Nethack Terminus from the University. It's the first time in a long time I've even had access to a Secret Project. The Data Angels only need 4 turns to complete it. I decide to burn Artifacts to rush it, as I certainly don't have the money, and I won't ever be needing Artifacts to get tech advances.
You know, it's only MY 2281. I'm finishing Genejack Factories and Energy Banks. I've only just gotten my conquered Believer territory under control with supplementary terraforming. I haven't had time to make any kind of big fleet of Formers to really go places. There's nothing abnormal about my empire development compared to any other game of SMAC I've ever played. The problem is that Thinker mod's use of Condensers and Boreholes is on steroids. I'm willing to say at this point, with the Weather Paradigm in the game, if the AI gets it the game is not basically playable. I mean, how much of a joy is it to sit around at the feet of a vastly superior power, having military units doled out to you? And that doesn't even happen anymore. Sometimes Roze sells me techs, sometimes she doesn't. She proceeds into the future at a ludicrous rate, and this game is really only an academic exercise in what the AI's endgame is going to look like.
And to add insult to injury, the Data Angels cheat. They're Cybernetic, raking in a +2 RESEARCH advantage. They're supposed to be doing Thought Control, and they'll go to war with me if I deviate from it.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 07:23:15 pm
tired of this |
MY 2284. Dammit, the Datatechs had 2 copies of the Bulk Matter Transmitter they were working on, as well as the Cyborg Factory. They weren't due to complete the latter for 6 turns. But they completed the BMT and then used the copy to also complete the CF. It's really tedious poring over junk like that to figure out what's going on. This has all the hallmarks of the previous 13 games, where at some point in the game, the AI just gets to have everything. Even if by some miracle I find a way to win this game, I'd never sign up for the experience again, because it's such a drag. More like "been there, done that, got the testing t-shirt."
and this is long since old too |
Was that on cue too, for my complaining? I think after this turn, I'm going to find something more fun to do with my life. Like crawl around under my car and look for oil leaks, so that I can watch tons of videos boring myself to death about how to fix it. At least I'll have something to show for the pain.
walk in to Neural Amplifier |
The Peacekeepers subverted one of my border cities last turn. In a curious turn of events, the Data Angels subverted the subverted city. Well I guess now I don't have a border problem there anymore! UN Haven City has also been left wide open. I believe I can air drop into it. In fact, I can orbitally insert anywhere on Planet, I sort of forgot about that. Wanna bet an Aerospace Complex is going to get in the way of my drop though? Yep, it's got one. But I think I can pass a Hovertank into there.
your mother was a hamster |
Ha ha! To add insult to injury, I used a Scout Hovertank, escorted by a Gun Jet. I suppose I'd better reinforce with some probe teams though. And now launch a real invasion to secure my prize. Didn't seem worth it before, but the opportunity has opened up. The Datatechs have also softened a lot of the resistance, providing distractions.
full metal warlord |
Actually, the quickest way to keep from being subverted is to switch to Power. That puts my PROBE at +3, making me immune to subversion. It has consequences, like cutting my income in half, but eh, nearly the end of the game. Hm, actually it says I can't be subverted by standard probe teams. Hope Thinker doesn't know about Algorithmic Enhancement. It won't be getting it from the Nethack Terminus, I snagged that for myself.
Ok this has worn me out, and now this new state of affairs is going to get complicated. It's about 2:30 PM and I'm going to go do that really fun, amazing jack-up-the-car job.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2019, 10:42:32 pm
future so bright gotta wear shades |
MY 2284 still. I am Governor, so I can make a proposal every 10 years. I still have to wait 4 years to Increase Solar Shade. Hope I remember and hope it helps. Roze did complete the Bulk Matter Transmitter, which tends to kick the eco-damage into overdrive.
I take UN Haven City and stock it with 4 drop troops and a probe team. The good news is the Peacekeepers are making expensive Silksteel hovertank probe teams. That means they take a long time to make. In the next 2 turns, I will probably only have to deal with 1 of them. And, I don't think they're Algorithmically Enhanced, so I don't think they can take over my cities.
I take a city next to UN Haven City as well. I don't take a 3rd because it's defended with a tough ECM unit. I need to get a rail close enough to the city to do a mindworm assault. Then it will go down. Alternately, Roze may just blow through it next turn anyways.
It is disturbing the extent to which my empire is defended by Green Trance Scouts. I've never had time to make any kind of real garrisons anywhere. What I'm using as a garrison, are drop troop leftovers from Roze when I invaded the Believers. I'm still stealing techs and the highest armor level is now Neutronium. In my mod that's strength 12 and it's very expensive to make. I'm only completing a Skunkworks next turn.
I've had to queue up many Pressure Domes because cities are threatened.
Post by: Vidsek on April 01, 2019, 12:39:14 am
You reminded me I seriously need to inspect and clean my vehicle. Oh, thank you so very much!
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2019, 01:00:49 am
You reminded me I seriously need to inspect and clean my vehicle. Oh, thank you so very much!
And for the effort spent, I didn't even learn anything more than I already knew. Gotta replace the valve cover gasket, but I think there's something else wrong and that won't be the end of it.
blitz |
MY 2285. The Peacekeepers didn't have ECM units elsewhere, they mostly worried about an air force coming for them. So I was able to take 5 cities in 1 turn with old Hovertank units, left over from the Believer war. They have stopped in UN Great Refuge due to the limit of their range. I haven't used any mindworms for this. 1 of the cities was a walk-in, presumably because the Data Angels did something. The rest of my empire is such a skeleton now! You could blow a feather and it would fall over, but if nobody's blowing, because Roze is keeping them busy, then I guess I'm ok. I've got garrison units coming but the new armor is expensive, and I have a lot of Pressure Domes I have to rush.
dug in at HQ |
MY 2286. That's the end of the blitz. I was able to take 1 more city easily. The 2nd city, it had a measly piece of Plasma ECM in it. I threw unit after unit after unit at it to take it down. There was no point in saving them for anything else, because the other 3 land bases are defended by strength 5 Silksteel ECM units. I even had to crash an Elite Impact Needlejet in order to finally break the base, the end was such a rockfight! Although in hindsight I didn't have to, as 1 Needlejet was actually in range. When there are so many units to move on a turn, how are you going to know? Well, beyond my patience level at any rate. I took the base, and I used up old units, that's the main thing that matters. The last 3 land bases, and all the sea bases, I hope Roze takes those.
The extreme difficulty of getting into these bases with Hovertank units, just because of one ECM defender, makes me revisit Tim Nevolin's idea of dropping the ECM buff to +25% defense. He also did that with Trance units, although I have less of an opinion on that at this time. I think the balance of power still favors Psi attacks, even if I haven't been able to utilize them presently. Finally there's the question of AAA defense. Maybe overpowered.
I'm rushing an AAA Neutronium Missile Infantry unit at my Skunkworks using those supply crawlers I didn't get to use for a Secret Project. Roze just sold me Chronoton gun technology. That's strength 16, my version of a Quantum Laser. They're gonna be expensive to make and I can't even get garrison units done, with my feeble (!) Genejack Factories. I clearly don't have time left in the game to build better factories either. One might even wonder if I have time to build heavy duty garrison units. I just have this paranoia that someone's gonna start hitting me with Conventional Missiles at any moment. I built a Flechette screen everywhere against that eventuality, but fat good it's going to do me with Green Trance Scout defenders!
If I get the rail completed, I can take these last cities out with mindworms. That will take a fair number of turns though. I could mobilize the mindworms before then, but they'd be stuck out in the field and unable to move back for defense.
I have a paranoia about that. In other games, when I've emptied out cities of cannon fodder units, the AI has blasted them with Conventional Missiles to destroy my Artifacts. My CMs can hit anywhere on Planet. Granted, in recent versions of my mod they don't move quite as fast as they used to. Only 30-ish moves per turn, but they don't use fuel and stay aloft indefinitely. This may explain why the CM spamming hasn't been as bad this game as some other games I've played. The enemy AIs are probably shooting whatever missiles they've got at closer targets, which is fine by me. I wanted all cities to be afraid of Planet Busters. I didn't want to make it easy for the AI to pester and spam with CMs, that was never a goal.
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2019, 03:08:54 am
what cloning vats will do for you |
MY 2287. Roze deposes me. Forget Transcending, I smell Diplomatic Victory soon. I put the Cloning Vats near the end of the tech tree, but it gets reached eventually.
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2019, 03:12:17 am
tempting offer! |
Should I take him up on the profoundly negative credits??!? Well, it would either make me infinitely wealthy, infinitely poor, or something like broke. It might give me an interesting result, but it wouldn't help me test this endgame. So I'm going to decline.
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2019, 03:59:23 am
end of the line for me |
MY 2287 still. I'm done. I've played numerous test games already with this kind of thing happening in Thinker mod, and in Fission Armor mod before that. No more.
This turn, somehow massive flooding did substantial damage to my empire. It even knocked a size 16-ish city down to size 9 instantly. I don't even understand the logic of that, if there is any. Lal did just have a weird energy bug not that many seconds ago, so who knows what's going on under the hood of the game.
I don't have the Formers to fix this. Even if I did, trying to repair the various rivers of Death is a serious drag. Basically it can't be done. Belatedly, the Data Angels have succeeded in ruining Planet. And somehow, all at once.
If I were still Governor, then next year I could propose to Increase Solar Shade again. Now, I don't even know if I can do that. Not that I want to. It's just idle speculation on how yet another turn may have gone.
So that's the end of me ever playing Thinker mod again on Transcend with cost_factor=7 ! My verdict is it's unplayable. Unless you want the game to be about grabbing the Weather Paradigm, and immediately killing anyone who somehow manages to grab the Weather Paradigm instead of you. My modding did manage to put the Borehole brakes on all the other factions.
Some time I may try Transcend with cost_factor=10 again, same as a human player. I did try that before, but I think it was 2 development releases ago. A number of important things have changed since then, so the experience cannot be expected to be comparable.
Even then, the AI will be able to build Condensers and Boreholes without doing any real eco-damage. This planet would have been long since underwater if a human player built an empire like Roze did. The whole premise of Thinker mod is basically built around a cheat in the AI's favor. Harmless enough in the stock binary, since it's too dumb to make much of any Condensers or Boreholes. Deadly, and unforgivably aggravating, in the hands of Thinker mod.
Another thing seriously annoying about Thinker mod is diplomacy is broken. AIs go to war with you over social engineering choices that they themselves are making. That matters quite a bit when the AI has the power of the USA, and you have the power of, like, Mali. When your choices are the difference between pop booming and not.
And it's really irritating to listen to, say, Socialist Deirdre give me a tongue lashing about not being Green. Or Fundamentalist Yang ranting about how I'm supposed to be a Police State. Totally destroys my willing suspension of disbelief. In short, I'm not willing.
So, how many better things will I find to do with my life, before trying cost_factor=10 ? Not sure, but cleaning oil out of the underside of my car sounds really exciting, attractive, and invigorating by comparison. Whether that's fair or not, all these test games have set my expectations rather low.
I will give Induktio credit that he has fixed some things, in reaction to various people's input, including mine. Perhaps I should just go to sleep for several months again and see where his work ends up.