Post by: bvanevery on November 01, 2018, 09:42:45 am
In my mod I predefined an ECM 3-Pulse Infantry probe team unit. These turn out to be a surprising PITA to kill! I thought armor would only affect probe team combat, and that ordinary units would summarily kill them as usual. That is not the case. They defend like ordinary garrison units. That means they can pretty much march right up to you to bother you, they are bitter little pills. Artillery doesn't do any good because they're armored. So far mindworms are the best antidote, as the probe team can't affect them.
If one has a high base morale rating for probe teams, or chooses more PROBE in the SE choices, I wonder if this can become a form of defensive abuse? They could have much higher morale than you'd otherwise be entitled to. Forget ordinary garrison units, just guard your cities with armored probe teams! This smells like a bug.
Post by: PvtHudson on November 01, 2018, 12:10:57 pm
On the side note, do you think it's too easy to get elite probe teams, either land, air, or sea - all of them? I sometimes wish regular units morale-enhancing facilities didn't affect probes, as probes have their own morale-upping techs in addition to SE and probe actions promotions.
Post by: bvanevery on November 01, 2018, 04:06:53 pm
I didn't even think about the free support, that's another problem. I've thought about making Clean Reactors available very early in the game to alleviate AI support problems. I'm not sure the AI would take me up on such a generous offer though. Currently I have them available as a Tier 4 tech, on par with Environmental Economics, Industrial Automation, and Genejack Factories. These are solidly midgame techs in my tree, it takes awhile to get there. I see the AI making some Clean units, but it's not into using that for most units.
Post by: bvanevery on November 01, 2018, 11:29:50 pm
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50, ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unitIf they were considered non-combat, then this number could be substantially increased. I suppose I could determine the answer experimentally.
Post by: bvanevery on November 03, 2018, 03:18:48 am
I haven't yet tested whether the "non-combat unit defending" affects probe team defense or not.
Post by: bvanevery on November 03, 2018, 03:23:56 pm
Code: [Select]50, ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit
Rather than bother to test whether this applies to probe teams, in my mod I'm just going to bump it to 100%. That makes it comparable to a ship caught in port, having air superiority in air combat, or AAA defense against an air unit. A perfectly reasonable decision in its own right, because some people have complained about the tactical value of a "wall of armored Formers". With this change, Former armor will need to be really good.
It either helps with the Probe Team armor exploit or it doesn't. It's the only variable available that could conceivably affect this.
Post by: bvanevery on November 03, 2018, 05:22:14 pm
Subsequently I started a game with the non-combat modifier at 100%. On turn 5, I had a colony pod adjacent to a mindworm. I saved the game to do an experiment with it. I waited for the mindworm to attack, and it totally and easily killed my colony pod without taking a wound. I changed the modifier to 50%, reloaded the game, and let the mindworm attack again. My colonist still died, but the mindworm was damaged 60%. On another such run, the colonist lived but was damaged 50%.
In the mindworm vs. colonist combat, the latter had the designation "Non Combat -100%" or "Non Combat -50%" in the combat odds. Probe teams have no such designation! This proves that the probe team armor exploit is fully functional. There's nothing I can do about it at the .txt modding level.
Post by: Geo on November 03, 2018, 05:33:53 pm
This proves that the probe team armor exploit is fully functional. There's nothing I can do about it at the .txt modding level.
They're kinda paramilitary police or something.
Post by: bvanevery on November 03, 2018, 08:05:35 pm
Post by: bvanevery on November 04, 2018, 12:42:15 am
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; 000000100000 = Allowed for Noncombat units (non-terraformer)Pointedly, I turned the following flag OFF, and the ability is still available:
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; 000000001000 = Allowed for Combat unitsDespite probe teams clearly being Noncombat, the following setting has no effect upon them:
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50, ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unitI consider this to be a bug. I don't think probe teams were meant to be armored badasses that normal combat units have difficulty killing. I thought perhaps the armor was for probe vs. probe combat only. And indeed, it does work for that. Armored Infantry chassis probe teams are a much better deal for probe defense than Speeder chassis probe teams are. They hold up way better.
I tried to give the AI that understanding, but it refuses to listen. It just uses the armored probe teams offensively! Due to the exploit, that actually works. So in the next version of my mod I'm throwing in the towel. Armored Speeder chassis probe teams will be available as predefined units, in the Synthmetal and 3-Pulse flavors. Such teams are expensive, but likely to be more effective. It's gotta do better than the classical stack of 4 normal probe teams being summarily murdered. The AI could stand to calm down, get a grip, and take an aimed shot on such things.
Post by: Vidsek on November 04, 2018, 02:55:08 am
With the Non-combatant defense penalty line not working with Probe units, I will second defining it as a bug.
Now to find an .exe modder to fix it.......
Post by: bvanevery on November 04, 2018, 06:54:05 am
Post by: PvtHudson on November 06, 2018, 08:17:59 am
Post by: bvanevery on November 06, 2018, 10:31:54 am
Even if you believe that adding armor makes it not a bug, having free support for a combat unit is surely a bug.
Post by: PvtHudson on November 06, 2018, 11:22:49 am
Even if you believe that adding armor makes it not a bug, having free support for a combat unit is surely a bug.Support isn't tied to unit's 'combatness' in any way, at least now. Saying nothing about how it should be. On another note: do you tested armored probe team being designated defender in one stack with non-probe unit, is it working?
Post by: bvanevery on November 06, 2018, 06:02:58 pm
Even if you believe that adding armor makes it not a bug, having free support for a combat unit is surely a bug.Support isn't tied to unit's 'combatness' in any way, at least now.
Again, someone designed 2 different kinds of rules and didn't think about how they interact. Here's how Support works: probe teams don't require support, supply crawlers don't require support. Otherwise, things require support unless they're Independent or have got Clean Reactors. Someone made a fairly simple straightforward system of classification based on type, and didn't think about how a rule about weapon > 0 or armor > 1 would override that.
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On another note: do you tested armored probe team being designated defender in one stack with non-probe unit, is it working?
Haven't. You can try...
Other cases to consider: now expecting the same behavior out of armored Formers and armored Supply Crawlers. The latter could again be a perfect defender, because it doesn't require support. At least in my mod, you'll have to play half the game before you actually get Supply Crawlers.
Post by: bvanevery on November 06, 2018, 07:50:58 pm
armored former no Noncombat penalty |
I contrived a demonstration of a Synthmetal armored Former being attacked. Note the lack of a Noncombat penalty in the battle / odds readout.
Post by: DrazharLn on November 10, 2018, 11:52:42 am
For all I know it could have already been fixed in someone's .exe patch.
I tested scient v2 and probes without armour are non-combat, those with armour are counted as combat. Seems like a bug to me.
Test scenario attached. Play as svengard to test. Attack the unarmoured one first.